Ammoless ranged weapons use up ammo

taltamir

The String of Everard +5 has an ability which makes it NOT require or use any ammunition.
However, making any change to carried ammo after equipping it causes it to use up that ammo, even if it has no benefits (ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

Also, it seems the AI is much more likely to swap out an ammoless weapon for a melee weapon if I don't carry any ammunition for it to consume.

elminster

The way bug reports normally go is you have current behaviour and expected behaviour mentioned. Presumably this just makes it easier for bug squashers to read so they can squash bugs

I'll just have a go at it and you let me know if its acceptable.

Current Behaviour: Sling of Everard is causing characters to swap it as a weapon in favour of a melee weapon, even though the sling doesn't actually require consumable ammo.

Expected Behaviour:
You should be able to run out of consumable ammo with it and still continue attacking from range with the sling without interruption.

TJ_Hooker

taltamir said:

(ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

I'm pretty sure you still benefit from equipping magical ammo, as I believe that the bonuses stack with the bonuses of the launcher. For example, if you equip bullets +1 with the sling of everard, you're going to have +1 to hit and damage compared to if you weren't using any ammo.

taltamir

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

(ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

I'm pretty sure you still benefit from equipping magical ammo, as I believe that the bonuses stack with the bonuses of the launcher. For example, if you equip bullets +1 with the sling of everard, you're going to have +1 to hit and damage compared to if you weren't using any ammo.

I don't think it is supposed to work like that.
Ammo that adds +3 acid damage will stack because its a different damage type. But +1 ammo shouldn't because there is already a +5 bonus that supersedes it, and only the better of two identical bonuses is used

sarevok57

that's how bows work, it stacks bonuses, and the sling of everard does stack bonuses with the bullets you put in it

TJ_Hooker

taltamir said:

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

(ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

I'm pretty sure you still benefit from equipping magical ammo, as I believe that the bonuses stack with the bonuses of the launcher. For example, if you equip bullets +1 with the sling of everard, you're going to have +1 to hit and damage compared to if you weren't using any ammo.

I don't think it is supposed to work like that.
Ammo that adds +3 acid damage will stack because its a different damage type. But +1 ammo shouldn't because there is already a +5 bonus that supersedes it, and only the better of two identical bonuses is used

The bullets that the sling generates aren't actually bullets +5. They may be bullets +5 in terms deciding whether or not they can damage a monster, but they are mundane bullets otherwise, i.e. they don't actually get +5 to hit and damage. So using the sling with mundane bullets would be exactly the same as if you were letting the sling generate its own ammo (except that it will hit as a non-magical weapon), i.e. you'd just get the +5 to hit, +2 to damage from the sling itself, and using bullets +1 you'd get a total of +6 to hit, +3 to damage (and hit as a +1 weapon).

taltamir

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

(ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

I'm pretty sure you still benefit from equipping magical ammo, as I believe that the bonuses stack with the bonuses of the launcher. For example, if you equip bullets +1 with the sling of everard, you're going to have +1 to hit and damage compared to if you weren't using any ammo.

I don't think it is supposed to work like that.
Ammo that adds +3 acid damage will stack because its a different damage type. But +1 ammo shouldn't because there is already a +5 bonus that supersedes it, and only the better of two identical bonuses is used

The bullets that the sling generates aren't actually bullets +5. They may be bullets +5 in terms deciding whether or not they can damage a monster, but they are mundane bullets otherwise, i.e. they don't actually get +5 to hit and damage. So using the sling with mundane bullets would be exactly the same as if you were letting the sling generate its own ammo (except that it will hit as a non-magical weapon), i.e. you'd just get the +5 to hit, +2 to damage from the sling itself, and using bullets +1 you'd get a total of +6 to hit, +3 to damage (and hit as a +1 weapon).

My point was that same typed bonuses never stack in DnD, only the better bonus is used.
However, it occured to me that this is not PnP... Looking it up, it seems the interaction is more complex than I thought:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6535/clarification-about-how-magic-arrows-bolts-bullets-work

According to that link
1. Magic Bow +1 with normal arrows
+1 bonus to thac0, no bonus to damage, considered nonmagical for resistance penetration
2. Magic Bow +1 with arrows +1
+2 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered a +1 weapon for resistance penetration
3. Magic Bow +1 that self generates ammo
+1 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered +1 weapon for resistances
4. Magic Bow +1 that self generates ammo with arrows +1
+2 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered +1 weapon for resistance

This suggests that using a self generating weapon with non magical ammo would hugely nerf it.
This needs testing

taltamir

I just ran some tests...

Iron golem.
Everard Sling +5 with mundane ammo: No damage
Everard Sling +5 with summoned ammo: 2 Damage (always the same)
Everard Sling +5 with +3 ammo: 4 damage (always the same)
Sling +2 with mundane ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +1 ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +2 ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +3 ammo: 3 Damage a hit (always the same)

From this I gotta say:
1. Non ammo summoning ranged weapons suck!
2. Equipping mundane ammo for a weapon that summons its own ammo is a huge nerf

TJ_Hooker

taltamir said:

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

(ammo that has no benefit for that weapon are: mundane, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5; there ARE ammo types that would provide a benefit, only those should be sued)

I'm pretty sure you still benefit from equipping magical ammo, as I believe that the bonuses stack with the bonuses of the launcher. For example, if you equip bullets +1 with the sling of everard, you're going to have +1 to hit and damage compared to if you weren't using any ammo.

I don't think it is supposed to work like that.
Ammo that adds +3 acid damage will stack because its a different damage type. But +1 ammo shouldn't because there is already a +5 bonus that supersedes it, and only the better of two identical bonuses is used

The bullets that the sling generates aren't actually bullets +5. They may be bullets +5 in terms deciding whether or not they can damage a monster, but they are mundane bullets otherwise, i.e. they don't actually get +5 to hit and damage. So using the sling with mundane bullets would be exactly the same as if you were letting the sling generate its own ammo (except that it will hit as a non-magical weapon), i.e. you'd just get the +5 to hit, +2 to damage from the sling itself, and using bullets +1 you'd get a total of +6 to hit, +3 to damage (and hit as a +1 weapon).

My point was that same typed bonuses never stack in DnD, only the better bonus is used.

Yeah, sorry, I misread your post (missed the "supposed to" in "I don't think it is supposed to work like that").

taltamir said:

However, it occured to me that this is not PnP... Looking it up, it seems the interaction is more complex than I thought:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6535/clarification-about-how-magic-arrows-bolts-bullets-work

According to that link
1. Magic Bow +1 with normal arrows
+1 bonus to thac0, no bonus to damage, considered nonmagical for resistance penetration
2. Magic Bow +1 with arrows +1
+2 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered a +1 weapon for resistance penetration
3. Magic Bow +1 that self generates ammo
+1 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered +1 weapon for resistances
4. Magic Bow +1 that self generates ammo with arrows +1
+2 bonus to thac0, +1 bonus to damage, considered +1 weapon for resistance

This varies from game to game. In BG1 and BG:EE, arrows +x and bows +x got +x to both hit and damage, so using a bow +x with arrows +y would give you (x+y) to both hit and damage, and your weapon would be considered +y in terms of what it can hit. In BG2, they only got the bonus to hit, but not to damage.

taltamir said:

I just ran some tests...
Iron golem.
Everard Sling +5 with mundane ammo: No damage
Everard Sling +5 with summoned ammo: 2 Damage (always the same)
Everard Sling +5 with +3 ammo: 4 damage (always the same)
Sling +2 with mundane ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +1 ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +2 ammo: No damage
Sling +2 with +3 ammo: 3 Damage a hit (always the same)

From this I gotta say:
1. Non ammo summoning ranged weapons suck!
2. Equipping mundane ammo for a weapon that summons its own ammo is a huge nerf

1) I'm not sure what makes you say that.
2) I'm pretty sure that using non-magical ammo with a launcher that generates is own ammo wouldn't make a difference, other than in cases where enemies are immune to non-magical weapons. So I wouldn't call it a "huge" nerf, but yeah you're better off letting the weapon create its own ammo rather than equipping mundane.

taltamir

TJ_Hooker said:

taltamir said:

1) I'm not sure what makes you say that.
2) I'm pretty sure that using non-magical ammo with a launcher that generates is own ammo wouldn't make a difference, other than in cases where enemies are immune to non-magical weapons. So I wouldn't call it a "huge" nerf, but yeah you're better off letting the weapon create its own ammo rather than equipping mundane.

I said they suck because they can't penetrate enemy immunities. to harm an iron golem I need +3 bullets, it doesn't matter if I shoot them from a non magical sling or a +20 sling, only the bullet's +s matter.

And if I do have such bullets I can shoot them from any mundane weapon

Also, the whole interplay makes them horrifically inefficient compared to melee weapons which just works and works forever without consuming ridiculously expensive ammo