I don't think any of the thief kits are particularly underpowered. They're all completely viable including the vanilla thief, which makes them a bit of an exception. Every thief has a role and while all pure-class thieves can feel a bit underpowered in combat late SOA and into TOB they still get some ridiculously good HLAs.
I absolutely agree. That's why I'm having trouble figuring out my 6th Underdog slot. I don't think it should be a Thief because none are what I would consider underpowered.
Traps can be pretty brutal in this game, especially the Lightning bolt traps which always seem to ricochet off walls just right so that they hit you multiple times. I was thinking about maybe using summoned creatures to absorb traps, but all the summon spells are high level... A Totemic Druid could solve that, but I'm not sure if that kit is really Underdog material since it seems more powerful than the vanilla Druid.
I may have to resign myself to sending in the Party member with the highest HP to deal with traps.
1.) The normal bard is more powerful than the Jester in BG1 and most of BG2 because the jesters song replace the normal bardic song, and the normal bardic song is quite a bit more useful.
2.) The swashbuckler is by far the most useful and powerful thief class. A F/T would be better at most points, but having that free Thac0, damage and AC is such a powerful thing. And remember that the extra damage / thac0 also works with ranged weapons. The swashbuckler is the third most powerful archer in the game, Blade takes first place (BG1) and archer ranger kit takes second.
3.) The beastmaster isn't as strong as a normal ranger, but he is still a fighter type character and he'll do much better than most other classes in the game.
4.) In BG1 the wizard slayer is very powerful as you're not missing out on too many items thanks to the restrictions. Throw a full plate on him, a large shield +2 and a good one handed weapon and he'll be a very efficient tank.
There is only one class in BG1 that i would call under powered, and that is the monk. The bards still get arcane spells, nice songs and stuff. Rogues are needed for opening locks and finding traps, but the swashbuckler is an amazing archer in BG1.
[Edited] :
To clarify the archer part.
The swashbuckler gets +Thac0 and Damage to his ranged weapons. This is a nice bonus in BG1 and really ramps up in BG2.
The blade gets an additional APR +2 Damage and Thac0 from his offensive spin and this works with ranged weapons. The blade is the most powerful archer type character in BG1.
[Edited 2]:
Depending on your team setup, the archer will be more efficient than the blade in BG1. It comes down to if you prefer more damage and Thac0 or maximum damage per arrow. The blade will be more efficient for most of the game, but once the archer reaches his second +Damage/Thac0 bonus, grand mastery in a ranged weapon and haste he will outperform the blade.
Swashbuckler : +2 Damage/ +2 Thac0 with all weapons (BG1) / Can specialize in daggers for throwing daggers (BG2) Archer : +2 Damage / +2 Thac0 with ranged weapon + High Mastery (BG1) Blade : +2 Damage / +2 Thac0 with all weapons, +1 APR and maximum damage per hit [Offensive spin] (BG1)
High mastery : +4 Damage / +3 Thac0 2 APR (Level 8 + High mastery)
As a pure archer the archer (Pun) will deal be more efficient than the blade when it gets to level 7 in BG1. Up until then the blade will be better with offensive spin.
The blade still has his bonus lore, arcane spells and will be a more efficient party member with still amazing archer skills
The swashbuckler truly shines as an archer in BG2 with firetooth and other throwing daggers (2d4). But in BG1 where most rogues end up shooting with a bow or crossbow, the swashbuckler with his +2 damage / +2 Thac0 will outperform the other rogue kits both in ranged and close combat.
@dib while C/Ts get THAC0 bonuses from DUHM, the strength bonus to damage is not multiplied by the backstab bonus, or at least it shouldn't be. They also can't backstab from sanctuary, which is a pain.
They are not bad, but they're not as good as most thief kits or other multiclass options.
For an underpowered thief, the best suggestion I can give is deliberately going for a low roll. You only need a 74 point roll to get a decently optimised archer thief with 18 Dex, 16 Con and 10 in every other stat. They're not going to kick any arse, but they can competently use a shortbow and deal with locks/traps.
Comments
I absolutely agree. That's why I'm having trouble figuring out my 6th Underdog slot. I don't think it should be a Thief because none are what I would consider underpowered.
Traps can be pretty brutal in this game, especially the Lightning bolt traps which always seem to ricochet off walls just right so that they hit you multiple times. I was thinking about maybe using summoned creatures to absorb traps, but all the summon spells are high level... A Totemic Druid could solve that, but I'm not sure if that kit is really Underdog material since it seems more powerful than the vanilla Druid.
I may have to resign myself to sending in the Party member with the highest HP to deal with traps.
It's not actively bad, it just significantly limits weapon choice and the two classes don't add a huge amount to each other.
2.) The swashbuckler is by far the most useful and powerful thief class. A F/T would be better at most points, but having that free Thac0, damage and AC is such a powerful thing. And remember that the extra damage / thac0 also works with ranged weapons. The swashbuckler is the third most powerful archer in the game, Blade takes first place (BG1) and archer ranger kit takes second.
3.) The beastmaster isn't as strong as a normal ranger, but he is still a fighter type character and he'll do much better than most other classes in the game.
4.) In BG1 the wizard slayer is very powerful as you're not missing out on too many items thanks to the restrictions. Throw a full plate on him, a large shield +2 and a good one handed weapon and he'll be a very efficient tank.
There is only one class in BG1 that i would call under powered, and that is the monk. The bards still get arcane spells, nice songs and stuff. Rogues are needed for opening locks and finding traps, but the swashbuckler is an amazing archer in BG1.
[Edited] :
To clarify the archer part.
The swashbuckler gets +Thac0 and Damage to his ranged weapons. This is a nice bonus in BG1 and really ramps up in BG2.
The blade gets an additional APR +2 Damage and Thac0 from his offensive spin and this works with ranged weapons. The blade is the most powerful archer type character in BG1.
[Edited 2]:
Depending on your team setup, the archer will be more efficient than the blade in BG1. It comes down to if you prefer more damage and Thac0 or maximum damage per arrow. The blade will be more efficient for most of the game, but once the archer reaches his second +Damage/Thac0 bonus, grand mastery in a ranged weapon and haste he will outperform the blade.
Swashbuckler : +2 Damage/ +2 Thac0 with all weapons (BG1) / Can specialize in daggers for throwing daggers (BG2)
Archer : +2 Damage / +2 Thac0 with ranged weapon + High Mastery (BG1)
Blade : +2 Damage / +2 Thac0 with all weapons, +1 APR and maximum damage per hit [Offensive spin] (BG1)
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Archer :
Kit : +2 Damage / +2 Thac0
High mastery : +4 Damage / +3 Thac0
2 APR (Level 8 + High mastery)
Blade :
Offensive spin : +2 Damage / +2 Thaco
Maximum damage (1-6 = 6 damage, Offensive spin)
2 APR (Offensive spin)
Fighter :
High mastery : +4 Damage / +3 Thac0
2 APR (Level 8 + High mastery)
As a pure archer the archer (Pun) will deal be more efficient than the blade when it gets to level 7 in BG1. Up until then the blade will be better with offensive spin.
The blade still has his bonus lore, arcane spells and will be a more efficient party member with still amazing archer skills
The swashbuckler truly shines as an archer in BG2 with firetooth and other throwing daggers (2d4). But in BG1 where most rogues end up shooting with a bow or crossbow, the swashbuckler with his +2 damage / +2 Thac0 will outperform the other rogue kits both in ranged and close combat.
They are not bad, but they're not as good as most thief kits or other multiclass options.
For an underpowered thief, the best suggestion I can give is deliberately going for a low roll. You only need a 74 point roll to get a decently optimised archer thief with 18 Dex, 16 Con and 10 in every other stat. They're not going to kick any arse, but they can competently use a shortbow and deal with locks/traps.