The only one Dorn is going to betray is his pitiful deity. And when I embrace my ultimate destiny, *I* will watch over him as he unleashes death and destruction over the forgotten realms that I once walked.
This does not mean betrayal as long as you are working within the fiend's plots and goals. If you do not... well I could see a quest to eliminate the fiend, and maybe if you are evil take the fiend's place.
Exactly. That's what I am pointing at...it might not even be Dorn's idea.
If you have Safana in your party, then you already know that he called her out as a rat. Dorn will follow charname as long as charnam isn't a wimp.
Funnily...when I was running just in 2 - my Swashbuckler and Dorn, he was suspecting someone...but hasn't named anyone (because there was noone else!). In other games, he was suspecting Imoen. (My sister! Imoen!) I wouldn't really think much of this conversation. Actually, Yoshimo's conversation with Haer'Dalis, where he calls him out for being a mole is much more interesting.
Some men can not be reasoned or bargained with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
And in D&D they are called CHAOTIC evil.
Which is pretty insulting considering the difference between lawful good and chaotic good is that the former are big government centralists and the latter are anti-government pro personal freedom. Lawful evil are sanctioned as functioning within society but for some reason chaotic evil are officially stated to just want the world to burn instead of combining anti government resentment with willingness to harm innocents to advance their own personal goals.
Thats why I believe they need to add bourgeois-proletarian axis in DnD. To separate individualism and collectivism as personal traits from class counsciousness.
Thats why I believe they need to add bourgeois-proletarian axis in DnD. To separate individualism and collectivism as personal traits from class counsciousness.
I really doubt Dorn would betray Charname. He's walking with a potental god at his side, if charname ascend to godhood the chances of him to become a favored of the new god of murderer are pretty high, the patch that charname runs is replete with power and death, he only tend to benefit in staying at the side of charname.
What i think as really possible, is Dorn to switch alliance from his actual patron to other powerful entities we're supposed to meet in the game, the lesser demon lord summoned in Ush'Natha, Kangaxx if he find in his heart a reason to not slaughter the party (in fact he will lose the fight but then...), Demogorgon in the Watcher's Keep. Well a change of patron to match Dorn's power would be nice.
Thats why I believe they need to add bourgeois-proletarian axis in DnD. To separate individualism and collectivism as personal traits from class counsciousness.
...interesting. What would be the tangible difference between a Lawful Evil Proletarian and Chaotic Neutral Burgeoise?
@kamuizin - yes, I had this particular movie and character in mind. That's a very well played example of Chaotic Evil, in the contrary to usual "Stupid Evil" or "Chaotic Stupid"
No, I disagree with the reasoning. Of the new NPCs, I reckon Dorn is the least likely to turn traitor: as has been pointed out already, he's big on loyalty and hates traitors. Yes, it'd be possible that the devs have (as suggested above) created a storyline in which his loyalty to Ur-Gothoz conflicts with his loyalty to Charname, and I agree that this could be an interesting storyline, but his story so far doesn't point to betrayal as the most natural development.
On the other hand, Neera is quite likely to turn traitor. In BGee, after the encounter with Meklin, the journal even notes Charname's suspicion that Neera will eventually betray him/her! I read that as a hint from the devs that this is the intended outcome (or at least one of the possible outcomes) in BG2ee.
Given that betrayal (or at least contingent betrayal) is already flagged as a likely story for Neera, and given that one of the original NPCs already has a betrayal story, I think it'd be a little unimaginative of the devs to include yet another betrayal storyline.
As for Rasaad, I reckon the logical development in BG2ee is that he'll have a "kit quest" in which he'll end up with a choice of either becoming a (kitted) Sun Soul Monk or turning to the dark side and becoming a Dark Moon Monk. Either way, if his allegiance after this choice is then opposed to Charname, it'd be a pretty plausible consequence that he'd then turn against the party. That's not necessarily the way it'll be written, but if they did want yet another betrayal storyline, then this'd make it quite logical for Rasaad - more so than for Dorn, IMO.
I think he won't betray Charname for three reasons
1) Considering the flack that the original DEVS got for Yoshimo, I can't see Overhaul wanting to do that again, particularly with how obvious it would be considering who you encounter in TOB.
2) There are other 'Evil' potential NPCs in BG2 that have 'Every reason' to betray Charmane and don't.
3) I think OP is subjective. Some say that Edwin is OP. Still others say Saravok is OP. There are a lot of things that can be done between the end of BG1 and the end of TOB to 'Balance' Dorn against the other NPCs.
Oh, and please don't 'redeem' him. It is hard enough to swallow the fact that Viconia is not considered 'Whole' without a shift to neutral. Evil people need love too.
I like having options for various NPCs to change alignment as their story and character develop, it adds some depth and realism to gameplay choices. However, it shouldn't just be about redeeming Evil NPCs, there ought to be a couple of possibilities for subverting Good NPCs - after all, that can also happen IRL. (And as I've mentioned above, I foresee a possible quest-outcome for Rasaad to turn Evil, which would be a fine Enhancement.)
Thats why I believe they need to add bourgeois-proletarian axis in DnD. To separate individualism and collectivism as personal traits from class counsciousness.
...interesting. What would be the tangible difference between a Lawful Evil Proletarian and Chaotic Neutral Burgeoise?
Okay, I will elaborate in a separate thread in a few days. It will be off-topic here, and there's a lot to write.
i doubt he'd backstab someone who has some divine blood in him/her. considering some time will have passed since Dorn would have last seen the charname, maybe w/e current situation he is in will tie in to the charname in some way (ie maybe he 'forgot' about one of the people who betrayed him [a lover or some youth who didn't know any better] and that person is working against the charname in the grand scheme of things or the new crowd he is in requires him to do some yoshimo like espionage)
ya know, it'd be real neat (although unlikely) if you can make good characters change alignment to evil. corrupt them or some such. it'd be interesting to see a lawful evil aerie or even a chaotic evil minsc 'o'
Ha Ha he will stick though with the party as good as rancud butter - then he will do a (NWN 2 spoiler)--- evil ranger end game betrayal like that ranger guy in the final battle against the evil bunny thing.... yeah he will be like "Ahhh priestess make me your servant and I will fight with you against this mortal fool" Alasandra will be like< " Yes Dorn Killl him with me and I will make you my champion BlackGuard>" so like in the afterward after you kill him and Alasandra you will get this:
Dorn Ala Carne was slain that day but the 'charname' never knew what became of him until years later a he was negotiating a peace treaty with Thay. One of thee wizard ambassadors arrived with a sullen, small, but somewhat beaten looking imp familiar who constantly complained and threatened but never the less adroitly sharpened pen quills and quickly fetched vellum as required throughout the negotiations. Upon hearing the Wizard call him Dorn 'charname' was shocked and unbelieving. But, then hearing another curse from the evil creature as it fetched fruit and muttered something about when it was stronger and got a greatsword "charname' realized the abused nasty thing was the former meaty D. Ala Carne.
Anyway hopefully there is a nasty rotten heart - Time warp space ship quest with Vlagars uncle will work- that you can defile the Holy 2hander with and make it a Dorn usable weapon.... also hear is hoping you can have a fun Dorn VS Keldorn fight if you keep them together too long - although that wrecked an hour or so as I had to boot Keldorn from the party to prevent him - an hour later- from going wack and killing Viconna....
I'm thinking that he might if you make certain "good" gameplay choices, like how some good characters do if you make "evil" choices.
I hope Dorn to behave like valen mod, as with her, if Dorn is in the party, the main char simply doesn't have the opportunity to choose the good patch, he would intervene and simple screw with good choices.
Dorn is an unlikely betrayer, since it would be a waste of his back-story if he did not reach Saradush. And that late in the game a betrayal is very unlikely.
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
Dorn is an unlikely betrayer, since it would be a waste of his back-story if he did not reach Saradush. And that late in the game a betrayal is very unlikely.
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
I hope for another M/M romance then, cos if Beamdog redeem him i will totally stop of purchase anything they made on BG in protest, cos... really? redemption to an blackguard?
Dorn is an unlikely betrayer, since it would be a waste of his back-story if he did not reach Saradush. And that late in the game a betrayal is very unlikely.
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
I hope for another M/M romance then, cos if Beamdog redeem him i will totally stop of purchase anything they made on BG in protest, cos... really? redemption to an blackguard?
As others have written it is not that unlikely that Dorn will switch from his patron to the Bhaalspawn as patron. Possibly including a fight against the former patron. If the Bhaalspawn is good or neutral this can lead to a change in aligment. That atleast would make more sense than a neutral (or even good) cleric of Shar, running around with a gift from Helm.
Dorn is an unlikely betrayer, since it would be a waste of his back-story if he did not reach Saradush. And that late in the game a betrayal is very unlikely.
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
I hope for another M/M romance then, cos if Beamdog redeem him i will totally stop of purchase anything they made on BG in protest, cos... really? redemption to an blackguard?
As others have written it is not that unlikely that Dorn will switch from his patron to the Bhaalspawn as patron. Possibly including a fight against the former patron. If the Bhaalspawn is good or neutral this can lead to a change in aligment. That atleast would make more sense than a neutral (or even good) cleric of Shar, running around with a gift from Helm.
That sounds awful. Taking a guy who was brutally evil long before he ever made a pact with a demon, and then changing his beliefs for a...good demi-god? Makes zero sense, I aint buying it.
Dorn is an unlikely betrayer, since it would be a waste of his back-story if he did not reach Saradush. And that late in the game a betrayal is very unlikely.
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
I hope for another M/M romance then, cos if Beamdog redeem him i will totally stop of purchase anything they made on BG in protest, cos... really? redemption to an blackguard?
As others have written it is not that unlikely that Dorn will switch from his patron to the Bhaalspawn as patron. Possibly including a fight against the former patron. If the Bhaalspawn is good or neutral this can lead to a change in aligment. That atleast would make more sense than a neutral (or even good) cleric of Shar, running around with a gift from Helm.
If bhaalspawn is good or neutral Dorn will probally ally himself with Demogorgon in the Watcher's Keep. Or kill all his allies after the fight or leave in disgust if char name doesn't have the guts to face Demogorgon.
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I wouldn't really think much of this conversation. Actually, Yoshimo's conversation with Haer'Dalis, where he calls him out for being a mole is much more interesting. A VERY good idea.
What i think as really possible, is Dorn to switch alliance from his actual patron to other powerful entities we're supposed to meet in the game, the lesser demon lord summoned in Ush'Natha, Kangaxx if he find in his heart a reason to not slaughter the party (in fact he will lose the fight but then...), Demogorgon in the Watcher's Keep. Well a change of patron to match Dorn's power would be nice.
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@kamuizin - yes, I had this particular movie and character in mind. That's a very well played example of Chaotic Evil, in the contrary to usual "Stupid Evil" or "Chaotic Stupid"
On the other hand, Neera is quite likely to turn traitor. In BGee, after the encounter with Meklin, the journal even notes Charname's suspicion that Neera will eventually betray him/her! I read that as a hint from the devs that this is the intended outcome (or at least one of the possible outcomes) in BG2ee.
Given that betrayal (or at least contingent betrayal) is already flagged as a likely story for Neera, and given that one of the original NPCs already has a betrayal story, I think it'd be a little unimaginative of the devs to include yet another betrayal storyline.
As for Rasaad, I reckon the logical development in BG2ee is that he'll have a "kit quest" in which he'll end up with a choice of either becoming a (kitted) Sun Soul Monk or turning to the dark side and becoming a Dark Moon Monk. Either way, if his allegiance after this choice is then opposed to Charname, it'd be a pretty plausible consequence that he'd then turn against the party. That's not necessarily the way it'll be written, but if they did want yet another betrayal storyline, then this'd make it quite logical for Rasaad - more so than for Dorn, IMO.
1) Considering the flack that the original DEVS got for Yoshimo, I can't see Overhaul wanting to do that again, particularly with how obvious it would be considering who you encounter in TOB.
2) There are other 'Evil' potential NPCs in BG2 that have 'Every reason' to betray Charmane and don't.
3) I think OP is subjective. Some say that Edwin is OP. Still others say Saravok is OP. There are a lot of things that can be done between the end of BG1 and the end of TOB to 'Balance' Dorn against the other NPCs.
Oh, and please don't 'redeem' him. It is hard enough to swallow the fact that Viconia is not considered 'Whole' without a shift to neutral. Evil people need love too.
it would suck for some people if both the same sex love interests were evil, although it would make me laugh
i doubt he'd backstab someone who has some divine blood in him/her. considering some time will have passed since Dorn would have last seen the charname, maybe w/e current situation he is in will tie in to the charname in some way (ie maybe he 'forgot' about one of the people who betrayed him [a lover or some youth who didn't know any better] and that person is working against the charname in the grand scheme of things or the new crowd he is in requires him to do some yoshimo like espionage)
ya know, it'd be real neat (although unlikely) if you can make good characters change alignment to evil. corrupt them or some such. it'd be interesting to see a lawful evil aerie or even a chaotic evil minsc 'o'
Dorn Ala Carne was slain that day but the 'charname' never knew what became of him until years later a he was negotiating a peace treaty with Thay. One of thee wizard ambassadors arrived with a sullen, small, but somewhat beaten looking imp familiar who constantly complained and threatened but never the less adroitly sharpened pen quills and quickly fetched vellum as required throughout the negotiations. Upon hearing the Wizard call him Dorn 'charname' was shocked and unbelieving. But, then hearing another curse from the evil creature as it fetched fruit and muttered something about when it was stronger and got a greatsword "charname' realized the abused nasty thing was the former meaty D. Ala Carne.
Anyway hopefully there is a nasty rotten heart - Time warp space ship quest with Vlagars uncle will work- that you can defile the Holy 2hander with and make it a Dorn usable weapon.... also hear is hoping you can have a fun Dorn VS Keldorn fight if you keep them together too long - although that wrecked an hour or so as I had to boot Keldorn from the party to prevent him - an hour later- from going wack and killing Viconna....
Also since he is the only m/m option I really hope that he can be changed to be more compatible with a good party.
That atleast would make more sense than a neutral (or even good) cleric of Shar, running around with a gift from Helm.