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[SPOILERS] What age are the Five?

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  • ICNICN Member Posts: 61
    IIRC, Bhaal could only ascend once most of his children were dead, so to me it makes sense that he'd try to prevent them from becoming too powerful. So Abazigal and the rest could only really get started once their overprotective daddy with the powers of a god had died, thus explaining why they haven't already murdered everything by the start of the series.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    If that's true, why would he have bothered to have so many? Or was he not aware of that until after he died?
  • He had over a thousand years, he might have been a horny bugger :P apparently he wasn't aware that the essence given to them could prove to be powerful enough to contend for his title.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    I suspect that the essence within the Bhaalchildren was quite weak while Bhaal himself was still alive. It could very well be that none of the children knew what they were before that, and even if they did, they'd probably not fully realize just how much potential there is.

    The reason he had so many children is simple: the more dispersed his essence, the less powerful the individual children. That's a safeguard against them getting any big ideas, as they obviously did towards the end.

    Also, I think the essence of Bhaal wasn't so much *within* the children per se, rather it sort of manifests as a connection to their individual share of the whole. Thus, with every dead child the others grew stronger and stronger, as there were less people sharing in it. That could also explain why the essence is lost by death: the link to the respective portions of the essence is irreversibly severed and merely resurrecting the body does not restore it. That's why CHARNAME isn't allowed to die, but everyone else is (ignoring the giant plot hole that is Imoen dying). That "link" to the essence is tied to the soul, so when Irenicus transferred the souls of CHARNAME/Imoen, the link was transferred alongside them. It remained intact, and when the souls were restored so was the link.
  • riyahhassettriyahhassett Member Posts: 59
    I was under the assumption that Bhaal's essenes was changed during the time of trouble. Before the time of trouble, defeating a god's avatar never threatened a god existence. When a god was destroyed during the time of trouble a god's essenes could and many instances was destroyed forever. Only divine intervention allowed a god's essenes to be restored. When a god essenese was released it was a massive and destructive force that permentatly changed the physical landscape where the god was killed forever. Magic dead zones were created in some instances. When Bhaal 's avatar created offspring during this time it was different then when he created offspring before because his avatar was truely mortal and killable.

    Only Bhaal spawn that were sired during the time of trouble had some of Bhaal's essenes. The Bhaal's spawn created before this time were more like Hercules, in as much that Hercules had no chance of becoming a god himself but was truely powerful in his own right.

    I think the two types of offspring should be considered separately.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited September 2013
    @ryhahhassett: if that is so, how do you explain the age differences and non-human race age gaps? How can Abazigal grow into a big dragon, and have a son that is a big dragon, too? All in 10 years? I think it's fairly certain that they must have been sired before the Time of Troubles.

    I think my theory is a more likely explanation, i.e. Bhaal's children had a link to their father's essence from birth/conception (whenever that was), but the essence only became available to that link once Bhaal himself had died.
  • riyahhassettriyahhassett Member Posts: 59
    I wonder if Abazigal has the potential to assume the Throne of Bhaal? That's the real question. I say no. Abazigal was limited by a mortal shell where CHARNAME is not. CHARNAME was meant to have Devine potential where Abazigal was not. I would liken Abazigal to Hercules. Abazigal was something more than a normal dragon just like Hercules was something more than a man. No potential for true divinity exists.

    The only way I could see Abazigal achieveing god hood is thru Ao appointing him to that status the way Ao appointed Cyric.

    At best Abazigal could have become a demigod.

    Bhaal did not have option to share his essenes with anyone at all till the time of troubles. No doubt in my mind that Bhaal made a ton of kids prior to the time of troubles. Only the children sired during the time of troubles had true divine essence. Bhaal shared more than just DNA.

    Furthermore sharing power/special abilities is different than sharing what truely makes one a god. It's important to understand the difference.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    @ryahhasset: Huh? Where do you draw these conclusions from? What makes CHARNAME special, other than surviving until the end? There is no question that Abazigal is a child of Bhaal, much like all the other Five. How did he grow up to be so large, then, and even have a son, when he's 10 years old?

    For that matter, we know from in-game info (the bio) that CHARNAME is supposedly ~20 years old. That pretty much decides it, as the Time of Troubles was 10 years prior to BG1 so CHARNAME could not have been conceived during the ToT, it had to be before. Unless of course you assume the bio to be a lie... but Occam's Razor and all...
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    I always thought CHARNAME was a bit of a special Bhaalspawn. Aside from the prophecies being about him, he also gets those special abilities + Slayer form.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    @rdarken: the Slayer manifesting is a result of Irenicus tampering with the soul. In absence of a stable connection to Bhaal's essence, the "taint" (whatever that is exactly) threatens to take over and consume the body. You're right though that CHARNAME seems especially susceptible to the influence, possibly because of the close encounter with Sarevok. This could have "attuned" CHARNAME to the essence better, resulting in a better connection (and consequently a larger void when the soul was stolen).

    The special abilities are just one manifestation of Bhaalspawn powers, all the other Bhaalspawn have their own, in varying degrees. Certainly natural predispositions would play a role in that, but you can't deny that all the other Bhaalspawn you meet have something special about them.

    Well, except Imoen. She's the runt of the litter, it seems, largely due to being hastily written back into the story (or so I gather). There's several inconsistencies centered around her, and I think she'd best be more or less excluded from the whole Bhaalspawn debate or things get too whacky and wild trying to incorporate her non-standard behavior (like... dying and resurrection).
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @rdarken All Bhaalspawn may have those abilities- and the Slayer form came about because of the meddling of Jon Irenicus. Plus, don't forget that CHARNAME also absorbed the powers and abilities of Sarevok, who went out of his way to kill and absorb the power and abilities of other "Children of Bhaal" that he discovered/ran into/knew about, so he probably had a larger share of Bhaal's essence than your "typical" Bhaalspawn (if there even IS such a thing).
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Yeah, I figured Imoen wasn't fair game haha

    But regarding the abilities CHARNAME gets - none of the Bhaalspawn you encounter in ToB or seem to have any such abilties. Granted, by ToB Cure Light wounds isn't exactly useful and there's not really a reason to use Slow Poison... But Draw Upon Holy Might would be, as would pretty much all of the evil ones. And those are all the abilities you get before Sarevok.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    @rdarken: in BG1 the abilities you get depend on your reactions to various things. It's entirely reasonable to assume that everyone reacts differently, and thus powers manifest in different ways for every Bhaalspawn.
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