Change Stoneskin's school of magic
Edwin_Odesseiron
Member Posts: 226
My issue concerning this powerful spell is that it should not fall under the Alteration school, as it is not actually altering anything, it is creating something. Let's have a look at the spell description:
Level 4 Wizard spell: Stoneskin
"When a wizard casts this powerful spell upon himself, AN OUTER SKIN OF STONE WILL MOVE UP FROM THE GROUND completely covering him. This skin is, of course, magical and will hinder the wizard in no way. The effect of this is to protect the wizard from physical attacks such as melee weapons and projectiles. For every 2 levels of the caster AN ADDITIONAL SKIN IS GAINED upon casting. For example, a 10th level wizard would receive 5 skins while a 20th level wizard would receive 10. For each skin the wizard possess the spell will stop one attack, so a 10th level wizard would be protected from the first 5 attacks made against him, the the sixth would affect him normally. The skins will remain on the wizard until he is affected by dispel magic, ALL OF THE SKINS ARE REMOVED due to physical attacks or the spell duration expires. It is important to not that this will not protect the wizard from any magical attacks such as Fireball, however, it will protect him from physical magical attacks such as Magic Missile."
So in the first sentence of the spell description, we read the wizard is actually SUMMONING the skins from the ground, not changing his own skin (unlike what happens with the Flesh to Stone/Stone to Flesh spells, which ARE actually Transmutation. It is changing the state of something into something else). For every 2 levels, another skin is GAINED (meaning these skins are actually being summoned/created, not altering what is already there. It's not as if every 2 levels the caster would gain an extra layer of normal skin to then be able to transmute them into stone via this spell.)
We can see an obvious similarity between stoneskin's description and the level 1 spell, Armor (which is correctly assigned under the Conjuration school):
"By means of this spell, the wizard CREATES a magical field of force that serves as if it were scale mail armor (AC 6). Its effects are cumulative with Dexterity and, in the case of fighter/mages, with the shield bonus. The Armor spell does not hinder movement, adds no weight or encumbrance, nor does it prevent spell casting. It lasts until successfully dispelled or until the duration runs out."
Now let's look at the specialist descriptions:
Transmuter: A mage that specializes in magic that alters physical reality.
Conjurer: A mage that specializes in creating creatures and objects to assist him.
Transmuters alter physical reality (though all wizards do that in some regard, that is basically the description of a "spell.") Regardless, they change (transmute) the properties of something existing into something else. The aforementioned stone to flesh/flesh to stone is a good example. Polymorph self/polymorph other is another good one. Tenser's Transformation, yet another example. These spells (and others) are all fitting for the school of Transmutation. Stoneskin simply does not fall into this category. It is clear that skins are being created/summoned onto the caster (the higher level, the more skins are created.)
This obviously falls into the Conjuration/Summoning school of magic, and should be assigned to that school for BG2:EE, and patched for BG:EE.
As well as making perfect sense logically (after reading the specialist and spell description), this would also enable Abjurers to cast a staple defensive spell. Imagine being a new player, picking a defensive specialist wizard, and then not being able to cast something as powerful and defensive as stoneskin? You would feel as if something wasn't quite right with the Abjuration school, or that the spell isn't correctly assigned. The latter would be true. This irks me as a veteran, never mind newbies who would (correctly) be perplexed by this oversight. After studying the spell description, it irks me even more because the spell simply does not belong under Alteration.
This change would make sense, both for gameplay and lore.
Level 4 Wizard spell: Stoneskin
"When a wizard casts this powerful spell upon himself, AN OUTER SKIN OF STONE WILL MOVE UP FROM THE GROUND completely covering him. This skin is, of course, magical and will hinder the wizard in no way. The effect of this is to protect the wizard from physical attacks such as melee weapons and projectiles. For every 2 levels of the caster AN ADDITIONAL SKIN IS GAINED upon casting. For example, a 10th level wizard would receive 5 skins while a 20th level wizard would receive 10. For each skin the wizard possess the spell will stop one attack, so a 10th level wizard would be protected from the first 5 attacks made against him, the the sixth would affect him normally. The skins will remain on the wizard until he is affected by dispel magic, ALL OF THE SKINS ARE REMOVED due to physical attacks or the spell duration expires. It is important to not that this will not protect the wizard from any magical attacks such as Fireball, however, it will protect him from physical magical attacks such as Magic Missile."
So in the first sentence of the spell description, we read the wizard is actually SUMMONING the skins from the ground, not changing his own skin (unlike what happens with the Flesh to Stone/Stone to Flesh spells, which ARE actually Transmutation. It is changing the state of something into something else). For every 2 levels, another skin is GAINED (meaning these skins are actually being summoned/created, not altering what is already there. It's not as if every 2 levels the caster would gain an extra layer of normal skin to then be able to transmute them into stone via this spell.)
We can see an obvious similarity between stoneskin's description and the level 1 spell, Armor (which is correctly assigned under the Conjuration school):
"By means of this spell, the wizard CREATES a magical field of force that serves as if it were scale mail armor (AC 6). Its effects are cumulative with Dexterity and, in the case of fighter/mages, with the shield bonus. The Armor spell does not hinder movement, adds no weight or encumbrance, nor does it prevent spell casting. It lasts until successfully dispelled or until the duration runs out."
Now let's look at the specialist descriptions:
Transmuter: A mage that specializes in magic that alters physical reality.
Conjurer: A mage that specializes in creating creatures and objects to assist him.
Transmuters alter physical reality (though all wizards do that in some regard, that is basically the description of a "spell.") Regardless, they change (transmute) the properties of something existing into something else. The aforementioned stone to flesh/flesh to stone is a good example. Polymorph self/polymorph other is another good one. Tenser's Transformation, yet another example. These spells (and others) are all fitting for the school of Transmutation. Stoneskin simply does not fall into this category. It is clear that skins are being created/summoned onto the caster (the higher level, the more skins are created.)
This obviously falls into the Conjuration/Summoning school of magic, and should be assigned to that school for BG2:EE, and patched for BG:EE.
As well as making perfect sense logically (after reading the specialist and spell description), this would also enable Abjurers to cast a staple defensive spell. Imagine being a new player, picking a defensive specialist wizard, and then not being able to cast something as powerful and defensive as stoneskin? You would feel as if something wasn't quite right with the Abjuration school, or that the spell isn't correctly assigned. The latter would be true. This irks me as a veteran, never mind newbies who would (correctly) be perplexed by this oversight. After studying the spell description, it irks me even more because the spell simply does not belong under Alteration.
This change would make sense, both for gameplay and lore.
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A conjured stoneskin would literally be a skin of stone, and would be impossible to move in, cast spells in, and weigh the user down. Otherwise it would function no differently then an ACTUAL suit of armor, including all the disadvantages while being less protective due to how easily stone can be shattered completely.
Stoneskin doesn't just alter (alteration) the environment to create skins of stone, it keeps them pliable so the caster can move freely.
Force effects are a whole different beast and must be conjured or invoked, drawing from somewhere/creating the energy on the fly, which is then formed into a weightless, mailable suit that can offer protection while having none of the draw backs of actual armor.
Conjuration summons Force effects from elsewhere and molds them into a defense.
Evocation creates (or occasionally calls via invocation) force effects and molds them into a defense or offense.
Alteration uses the environment or modifies the base creature.
Divination gives glimpses into the future that allow them to better avoid attacks and ambushes.
Illusion uses optical tricks to fool opponents.
Necromancy uses their knowledge of life and death to strengthen their bodies.
Enchantment muddles the senses of those attacking them, either turning them into allies, preventing them from acting by a variety of means, sowing chaos among their ranks.
Look at the level 1 spell, Armor, which is conjured. The wizard is conjuring the magic armor onto himself which adds no hinderance or weight, it protects while being completely magical in nature. He is not LITERALLY summoning a suit of armor onto himself. This is the same thing.
So even if it is Alteration, it also falls under Conjuration.
Hell, teleportation effects are alteration, so even if it was bringing matter from somewhere else, it would still be alteration.
The main difference between a conjuration and alteration bringing something is that alteration REALLY brings something there. If you teleported a hobgoblin to you to attack some enemeis..that hobgoblin is really there and will stay there. It also has no compulsion to help you and is actually pretty likely to attack you. And if it dies, it really dies.
While conjuration only brings things temporary, and does so via creating temporary body for the summoned creature to use. This temporary body includes a compulsion to serve the caster, but can be broken via mistreatment, and if the creature is killed, nothing happens, since it wasn't it's real body, it's consciousness merely returns back to it's real body.
The only time conjuration literally brings something together is gate. When it physically links 2 planes of existence. Rather then a character moving themselves from 1 place to another, or as below, straddling 2 planes.
Take Wraithform (Alteration/Illusion) for instance. It uses alteration to partially transport the caster to the ethereal plane, allowing non-magical weapons/effects to pass through them harmless, but not enough to completely by-pass physical barriers, instead allowing them to bend or compress their bodies to fit through small cracks and crevices. And the illusion part that makes them appear to be a real wraith, so much so, that most undead will consider them an ally, aside from highly intelligent undead (liches, vampires mostly) who get a save (at -4) to realize the deception.
While conjuration only brings things temporary, and does so via creating temporary body for the summoned creature to use."
Stoneskin is not a permanent effect either, it fades after 16 hours have elapsed, thus your overly aggressive rhetoric falls short once again. Whilst it may be altering the ground as opposed to bringing something from nowhere, the Stoneskin EFFECT is no different to the Armor effect. Both are things which should weigh something, but don't. Both fade after some time has elapsed, and both are magical in nature.
And regarding to the "conjuration does not really bring things there, creating temporary body blah blah" that description fits Illusion better. A summoned Hobgoblin is REAL and does REAL damage and leaves behind REAL items if it dies. You say that its consciousness is in some other place or whatever, implying that soul transference takes place when a creature is summoned, taking its conscious from elsewhere to implant it in the "fake" conjured body for the spell duration. This would go into whole other areas which is simply not the case. Which conscious would it take? From which existing Hobgoblin in which part of the world? What happens to the "real" Hobgoblin whilst it is in the summoned consciousness? It's "real" body just shuts down?
Changes alteration makes are permanent, ALWAYS. If Alteration teleported stone dust to mold a skin out of and then enchant it to be weightless and move as if it was normal skin but yet able to absorb any physical attack per skin, even after the spell ended that stone dust would remain behind because it's was really brought there.
(the PnP description for stoneskin would make a lot more sense. The spell requires the caster to have powdered stone/crystal dust on hand in order to cast the spell, which is rubbed on the skin as part of casting, which pulls surrounding dust or sand from the environment to the caster which is then transmuted into the layers of the stoneskin spell).
Conjuration does NOT bring what it summons there, it creates a copy composed entirely of magic. For the duration of the spell, it's functionally real, but everything about it vanishes when the spell ends. Best seen in that summoned creatures that enter an anti-magic field vanish as long as the the field is in effect. (were BG properly implemented, summons would drop nothing and disappear on being slain, but otherwise work like the real thing).
Where as truly real creatures such as Animated dead (which are permanent once animated in PnP), golems, teleported or gate characters are unaffected in anti-magic fields or dead magic zones.
As mentioned the only time Conjuration brings something truly to a new plane is via Gate, since it joins 2 places together temporarily, and during that window, creatures can pass fully to either plane but are stuck there once the Gate closes because the Gate didn't bring them there, it just opened the way for them (and if a specific type of creature was named, compel one of that type to come through the Gate, but offers no other benefits or powers over them).
Illusion on the other hand are purely fake. Low level illusions are totally fake and can't interact with anything. The medium level illusions are composed of enough magic that they can feel real when striking them or being struck by but can't actually do anything if disbelieved (except for phantasms which uses the target's own belief to make their results real). High level illusions like Simulacrum or the shadow-magic line of spells are partially real, they have real effects and can function regardless of whether the viewer believes them or not, but are less effective then a real version of that creature would be, and unless they're believed lack any special offensive qualities (If you used Shades to create a fake Vampire, and the target it attacked believed it was real, they would take 80% normal damage and actually lose levels. If this disbelieved they would take 60% normal damage, and none of it's special abilities would work against that person).
Pnp discussions are entirely irrelevant here. This is not a Pnp game and thus, certain things cannot be implemented here.
Stoneskin is not permanent, it fades away with time. The Gate creature which you say is permanent also disappears at spell duration's end. I have no idea how these are implemented in the Pnp version since I have never played it, so on that I cannot comment. Thankfully, I am not on a website about Pnp Dungeons and Dragons, I am here to discuss the video game Baldur's Gate. And for this game to work properly, certain things from Pnp have to be changed.
Let us entertain the thought for a moment that Stoneskin really is Alteration. If it is, I should not be able to cast the spell in the Planar Sphere then, where there is no earth, probably a limited amount of dust and other fragments which I could "alter" into shaping these skins. Yet, I can. I should not be able to cast it in the Sahuagin Lair, where there is only walkways and water, no earth or anything else I could form these skins from. Yet... I can. I should not be able to cast it in Spellhold, where there are only cold walls, ceilings and floors. Or anywhere else indoors for that matter. But guess what? I can. Freely, and as many times as I want. Why? Because I am not altering anything, I am summoning these skins.
Again: The Pnp version could be different, I can't say. Though it makes sense with the powdered stone/crystal dust thing you mentioned. However, for the video game version, Stoneskin is Conjuration, because I can cast it in any environment at any time without having to "alter" anything.
That you can use it without any stone around is irrelevant, it just means that the devs didn't want to spend the time to code in the limitation. It's the same with, for exampe, Entangle and Animate Dead spells. You don't have to have any vines (or branches or straws) or any corpses around to use those either.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix what we can. Stoneskin being conjuration is one of them. As I said, not just for the above arguments, but so Abjurers can cast the spell. Or simply add Abjuration to the classification and be done with it. They're defensive mages without access to the most important defensive spell. The RP aspect of it all is what's annoying.
And to me this seems a wholly mechanical issue rather than having anything to do with RP. Roleplaywise, the spell definitely goes in Alteration. If it is the fact that the spell's limits are badly coded into the game that bugs you, then be the responsible GM of your game and don't use it where in areas where there is no stone nearby.
You can be a PnP purist all you wish. Go play with your friends however you like if that is the case.
As for stoneskin being a defensive spell not enough of a reason to add Abjuration to it? I vehemently disagree. Abjuration is the school which specializes in defensive magics. Stoneskin is the epitome of a defensive spell, probably the best one. Certainly a staple within any mage's spellbook. And guess who are the ONLY wizards who cannot cast this amazing defensive spell? The defensive specialists! (Yes, it doesn't make sense.) By adding Abjuration to the spell classification, it ensures that Abjurers can cast it. It will take nothing away from Transmuters or anyone else. Everyone will be able to still use it as per normal. Abjurers not being able to cast stoneskin is like Kensai not being able to use swords, thieves not being able to pick locks, or dwarves remaining sober. Makes zero sense.
Your above example of me RPing and not using the spell in an area with no stone/earth only proves my point that as the game stands - Stoneskin should be conjuration. Otherwise, there'd be no need to alter my gameplay to fit the spell's actual description of alteration by using it only in places with stone/earth.
Anyway now I feel like I am going around in circles and there's nothing worse than repetition. So of course, nothing will get changed and I've wasted my time yet again. Thankfully, at least no one has come up with the usual solution of "Mod it." That's even more infuriating than stoneskin being alteration.
Abjuration- Spells of this school focus magical energies to provide protection. This protection can take a number of forms, including warding off specific types of weapons or creatures and discouraging or dispelling enemies. The School also includes a variety of spells including avoidance and repellence. Abjuration spells concentrate on eliminating or hindering sources of potential harm rather than repairing damage.
Alteration- Spells of this school enable the caster to channel magical energies to cause direct and specific change in an existing object, creature or condition. Alterations can effect an object's form (polymorph other), Weight (feather fall), Abilities (strength), location (teleport without error), or even his physical well-being (death fog).
Conjuration/Summoning- This school includes two different types of magic, though both involve bringing in matter from another place. Conjuration spells produce various forms of non-living matter. Summoning spells entice or compel creatures to come to the caster, as well as allowing the caster to channel forces from other places. Since the casting techniques and ability requirements are the same for both types of magic, conjuration and summoning are considered parts of the same school.
Enchantment/Charm-Similar to the school of Conjuration/Summoning, this school encompasses two general types of spells. Both types imbue their subjects with magical energy to create specific effects. Charm spells induce changes to influence the behavior of creatures, usually altering the subject's mental or emotional states. Enchantment spells invest non-living objects with magical powers. Neither Charm nor Enchantment spells have any effect on their subject's physical form.
Greater Divination- This school includes a variety of spells that reveal information information that would otherwise remain hidden or secret. Greater Divination Spells reveal the existence of specific items, creatures or conditions, as well as information about the past, present or future. This school includes spells that contact creatures from other planes of existence, but do not induce direct action from those creatures.
Illusion- Spells from the school of Illusion bend reality to create apparent changes in the environment, in the caster, or in other persons or creatures. These spells do not cause real changes as Alteration spells do, but instead alter the way creatures and persons perceive reality. This school includes both illusion and phantasm spells. Illusion spells simulate reality, while phantasm spells change the way the target perceives reality.
Invocation/Evocation- This school includes two types of spells, both of which use magical energy to create specific effects by bringing forth special forces that the caster shapes into constructs of energy or constructs of matter. Evocation spells use the natural magical forces of the planes. Invocation spells call on the intervention of Powerful Extradimensional Beings.
Necromancy- This powerful school involves spells dealing with death and the dead. These spells drain vitality from living creatures and restore life functions to unliving creatures. Bones, blood, spirits and apparitions are all associated with the magical energies shaped and controlled by the specialists of this school.
but in the end it really doesn't bother me what school stoneskin is, as long as it never falls into the divination school ( because if I play a specialist caster its always a conjurer, because conjurers by far are the best specialist wizards)
In the Pnp version , it indeed makes complete sense that Stoneskin should be Alteration, as it is altered from earth/stone. However, in the computer game, since I can cast Stoneskin in any environment (I'd be able to cast it in another dimension that is made purely of water or clouds and nothing else) I am therefore conjuring it from elsewhere, much the same way as level 1 spell Armor is conjured (neither add hinderance or weight. In fact, the other poster said Alteration stuff is REALLY there, thereby rebutting his own earlier point of "it would be skin of actual stone" if the spell was conjuration. Since level 1 spell Armor is not ACTUAL armor, this point is nullified.)
Moreover, I don't really care whether it is Conjuration or not, I just want Abjurers to be able to cast it. Simply adding Abjuration to the spell classification (making it Alteration/Abjuration) would enable everyone to be able to cast Stoneskin and be happy. It wouldn't take anything away from anyone. As it stands, the epitome of a defensive spell is able to be cast by everyone EXCEPT the Abjurer, who is supposed to be a defensive specialist! It would be like taking Monster Summoning away from Conjurers.
- End repetition.
Finally, the off-topic "best specialist" argument.. the best school is subjective. I personally think Invokers are by far the best. Divination actually has some very useful spells in its school, whereas I don't think I've ever utilised Enchantment spells so I don't care about them. The reason I don't like Enchantment spells is there is a risk of failure (charm person, domination, etc, all give the victim a saving throw. If they are successful, you've just wasted a spell slot, time casting the spell, and done literally nothing).
When I spellcast, I want the time I am taking casting to produce an effect. Divination gives immediate results. Invocation too, and Conjuration. In fact, every school but Enchantment gives immediate result (aside from the few minor enchantment rubbish spells no one uses anyway.) People use Enchantment to be able to charm others, that's the strength of the school. And the strongest spells of this school always give the recipient a "way out," via a saving throw, which happens a fair bit. It's inconsistent, unreliable and thus, impractical. I read somewhere that Enchantment school was great in the PnP version, but in RPG video games, it simply can't translate properly (kind of like Divination.)
So, Sleep, Charm Person, Domination, Hold Person? No, thank you. I'd much rather have Identify, Oracle, True Sight, Farsight, all of which are practical, useful spells that do something, 100% of the time.
After the powerhouse that is the Invoker, Necromancers are the second best. Illusion spells are not that big of a deal, and I can get by without mirror image and invisibility just fine.
Conjurers probably come in at a third best, but only slightly over Abjurers. If Abjurers could cast Stoneskin, they'd easily be third (or even second), because I generally find Divination to be more useful than either Alteration and Illusion.
Stoneskin is pure alteration, it's never going to change. Even the plane of air has land-masses of free-floating earth and stone and carries dust particles on the wind. Even underwater has sandy bottoms or bits of grit floating around.
Name 1 single location in BG where it's completely impossible to have access to materials (PnP already provides it via the required casting component). (and yes, even hell, the pocket plane, and the throne have stone...they're literally made of it).
Every School has at least 1 spell that provides some form of defense (even if some, like Divination/Enchantment do so less directly)...stoneskin is alterations.
Abjuration already gets many more defensive spells then any other school and also has exclusive rights to the spells that remove those protections.
But it CANNOT directly manipulate physical materials due to greater focus on manipulating magic.
Abjuration uses raw magic to simply prevent whatever a ward protects against from entering or even touching the warded space/target.
Abjuration will NEVER have stoneskin, because nothing in Abjuration can do what stoneskin requires to happen, nor does abjuration even have anything that would contribute to the process, that alteration can't already do perfectly on it's own.
Conjuration/Alteration makes more sense, but due to Alteration already having a means to transport material, is completely unneeded even if your assertion for how the spells works was correct (it's not).
I really don't have any new points to add. I believe I've stated my case more than adequately in the previous posts. Any points you make regarding Transmutation fall short for this game, as it is NOT pnp and never will be, no matter how much you want it to. Refer to above arguments for points that prove how you are contradicting yourself. But here's the quick reference to some of the key points you made:
-"Alteration REALLY makes something, Conjuration doesn't." (Ok, right, my Hobgoblins don't do real damage and they also don't leave behind real items when they die. Yep, sure thing.)
-"If Stoneskin was Conjuration, they would actually be skins of stone and impossible to move." (Thus contradicting the previous point, because apparently conjuration doesn't REALLY make anything.)
- "Alteration is really creating these skins from real stone/earth." (But wait: Alteration REALLY makes something.. So why are these REAL skins that were Transmuted from the ground NOT ENCUMBERING the mage?)
- "Changes alteration makes are permanent Conjuration are not." (Stoneskin expires after 16 hours.)
And your nonsense just goes on like this. I must repeat once more: This is NOT PnP. The same rules do not apply here. And they NEVER will. If they did, you can bet a lot more people would be playing Diviners.
Stoneskin and Armor spells have the same effect. Both should weigh something and don't. Neither adds encumbrance to the caster. Both EXPIRE after a duration (thus rebutting the point that Alteration stuff is permanent.) And both should thus be Conjuration.
Next time I'll play a Diviner who can't cast identify. Yeah, that would be fun, and a really immersive/complete RP experience.
@ZanathKariashi don't bait edwin out so much either.
I mean, there's an arguement about this? It's like argueing about the ears of Mickey Mouse really being black, or being a shade of black with a funky name.
BG is based on PnP...and in this case they went 95% word for word on stoneskin (instead of rubbing stone dust on the skin, it pulls it from the surrounding environment for the same purpose), including the fact it's pure Alteration.
Stoneskin will never be changed because there's literally no reason to.
Abjurers already have far better defensive spells then stoneskin could ever hope to be, so they don't need it. Everyone else can already cast it AND all the spells abjurers get so they don't give a crap, and that leaves Alteration as the only specialist who actually NEEDS stoneskin, because they lack all of abjuration's superior defensive buffs.
Oh, so edgy. I had to stop what I was doing to stare at the screen for a few moments in the sheer disbelief of how badly I just got told.
Making Stoneskin into Conjuration would not take it away from Transmuters. Alternatively, simply adding +Abjuration to the classification would enable everyone to cast it. No one actually loses out in that case.
As to WHY it should be changed? I have covered a thousand times over, it feels like.
No point going on about it. They'll either change it/add abjuration, or they won't. My guess is they won't, but hey, at least we'll all sleep easier knowing we're richer for having this discussion.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some modding to do. I'm going to create a crazy topsy-turvy world where nothing works as it should and nothing makes sense. Fighters will only be able to use quarter staves, Monks will go around in full plate, Wizards will be able to cast spells whilst wearing armor, Dwarves will be clean shaven and unable to grow beards. That will be the new Elven trait. Halflings will be giants and Ogres will be the size of a rat. Mostly, everyone will be able to adapt to these new traits, some may even like them.
But wait till you see what I've got in store for Abjurers.. They're going to be infuriated. I'm going to take away one of their most beloved spells: Stoneskin. Frankly, I'm sick of them being so focused on protective magics. We'll see how the defensive specialists like that!
Oh. Wait.
Please consider what you're posting before you post it, or I'll be forced to issue warnings. You both know better than this.
PS: enchantment spells are incredibly powerful, hold monster is amazing, greater malison is great, and emotion hopelessness is also great, especially in bg1 these spells wreck baddies, and in bg2 hold monster is even devastating to ToB baddies ( although my favourite school is still evocation but some of those enchantment spells are just shop wreckers)
Meanwhile Conjuration is $%#^ed vs invisibility spammers, forcing you to bring other people along to cover the deficiency, causing them to lose by default.
If party members count, then all specialists are equal, since you can just bring another mage or cleric to cover the area your Specialist lacks.
Which is main reason I abhor the current implementation. There is no reason to specialize...1 extra spell per level just isn't worth it, imo. And if I want casting capacity, I'll just go with a sorcerer, who has enough slots to do everything required of mage without sacrificing anything and doesn't have to deal with the headache of tracking down scrolls.
And @Edward_Odesseiron, by wanting to give the spell Stoneskin to every specialist, you are missing out on one of the points of BEING a specialist- that with every choice giving greater power (an extra spell of your specialist's type and lowered saves vs the spells of your specialization), there also comes a limitation. One of those limitations being that by choosing a certain school, you lose the Stoneskin spell completely. It's not a LIMITation if it doesn't LIMIT anything. It's a choice you make at character creation. That's why I forgo specialists and make my mages generalists- they can use all the spells, but forgo extra spells. That's the choice I make.
@sarevok57 Using party members doesn't count, otherwise it doesn't really matter what you are. I could argue that Diviners would be best since priests can do the summoning and use the Power Words, thereby covering the Diviner's weakness of not being able to use Conjuration. You have valid points with the identify part in BG2. However, I've noticed that using identify the spell VS identify at the shop enables me to buy certain items a LONG while before I otherwise would have if I ID'd at shops, in BG1 especially. In regards to everything else, charming/holding just aren't that good, man. Enemy saves far too often for my tastes. Besides, you're generally too busy collectively blasting the enemy to pieces to worry about holding/charming singles. Besides, as I said, if the enemy saves VS whatever you're trying to do, you're in real trouble. The Invoker can stand alone, uncover illusions of other mages whilst hiding their own. They can blast the enemy to smithereens while being able to cover their defenses too. Plus all their spells work with no chance of failure.
@ZanathKariashi I don't get your point about Conjuration being bad VS invisibility spammers. Non-Detection is an Abjuration spell. Also, I completely disagree with your specialist choice. Necromancy is strong. Illusionists are best in Neverwinter Nights 2, and the reason for that is because Enchantment/Charm is the opposite school for Illusionists in that game.
Although, the fact people like different specialists for different reasons shows that each person has their own playstyle. And since everyone's finished the series (I assume) then all points are opinions and all opinions are valid.
@LadyRhian I'll keep that in mind the next time I cast Lower Resistance.
By the by....Considering Simulacrum is one of the strongest spells in the game, I can't see why anyone would claim necromancy is good at all. If extra spell-casts are so valuable (valuable enough to sacrifice a whole school for them), then why is the ability to create a duplicate of yourself who is 2/3 of your level not considered ridiculously powerful? That spell basically gives non-necromancer specialists 20 extra spell slots (15 for generalist) just at the minimum level needed to cast it, and gives even more the higher you become, and most of those spells will be just as effective as if you had cast them yourself due to spell caps or the enemy not lasting long enough for the slightly less duration to become an issue.
Lower resistance is both because it requires effects from both schools. Abjuration can't directly affect a creature or material, so it needs effects from alteration to modify the base creature to weaken their magic resistance. Changing the base creature is alteration, weakening the field of their magic resistance is abjuration.
Stoneskin, as we've covered, doesn't need outside help from any other school, even by it's own in-game description. Even if it was bringing material from somewhere else rather then taking it from the surrounding environment, even though it doesn't say anything of the sort in the description, Alteration includes teleportation and telekinsis effects and is perfectly capable to do so entirely on it's own without any input from another school. Alteration also includes the effects to expand a material so even a tiny amount of material could be multiplied to whatever amounts the spell requires.
Dual-school spells only exist because a given school lacks an effect property needed for the spell to function as intended.
(Taking Melf's meteor's as an example. They're Alteration/Evocation. Transmuting them from surrounding rock, imbuing the meteors to strike as magical, and hasting their attack rate are all alteration effects...all evocation contributes is a small explosion of magical fire on impact).
Also, how does being able to cast non-detection allow a conjurer to target an invisible/partially invisible creature? Their only options are to cast dispel, which may or may not work, or load up on AoE spells which are generally not effective use of slots vs a single creature.
As for your Necromancy argument..
"By the by....Considering Simulacrum is one of the strongest spells in the game, I can't see why anyone would claim necromancy is good at all."
Er... because I can cast both Simulacrum and any Necromancy spell I want, as long as I'm not ACTUALLY a specialist Necromancer. One spell (Simulacrum) being powerful does not equate to an entire school (Necromancy) being crap. That's an extremist view if ever I've seen one. By the same token, that one spell has never made me want to miss out on Horrid Wilting, Wail of the Banshee, and even Larloch's minor drain (which is always useful, due to it's insta-cast). Besides, no one on this entire thread anywhere said the Necromancer is the best school, or their favourite (I simply said it was strong, and rightfully so), so I don't know what point you're so aggressively defending.
You REALLY like Illusion, we get it. You're obviously a PnP enthusiast, but that has limited relevance here, if any, for certain topics.
And the rest of your post seems to be along the same lines of this - answering questions that nobody asked.