Shadowdancer/Mage

Basillicum

Hi,

After having tumbled about with a variety of different ideas for my upcoming character, I have decided to concoct a Shadowdancer/Mage. Not necessarily the most original idea, but there are a few aspects of this idea that makes it a little tricky (at least for me). So I'm hoping for some creative input.

The biggest question is of course when to dual class from Shadowdancer to Mage. As I see it I should dual at level 9 or 10. 9th level grants me a backstabbing multiplier of x3, and 10th level grants me another use of Shadowstep. Do I need another use of Shadowstep?

Either way the character will stay a Shadowdancer until the very end of BG1 or the beginning of BG2, and after pressing the Dual Class-button he won't reboot his SD card before well into BG2. From a roleplaying perspective I think I should wait until BG2, arguing that Irenicus' pretentious show of magical prowess become kind of a catalyst for my character's sudden lust for arcane powers (or whatever).

Also, this combo will suffer a severe lack of proficiency points. Now, to maximize backstabbing I know that I should probably use a zweihander, but power gaming isn't really the most important part for me.

I think Single-Weapon Style looks really classy, so that's probably what I'm going for. I suppose the increased critical chance is a good argument as well. But I have absolutely no idea which weapon I should be using, so I keep skipping between the different options, re-pre-generating my character again and again.

When it comes to ranged weapons I think I will be using a crossbow (silently pretending it's a hand crossbow), to allow room for other (real) archers wielding short- and longbows.

Ideas?

dib

Doing this with a char myself, don't know exactly when I'll dual-class but it will probably depend more on skill points than anything else - I'd like to have plenty of points in both stealth and detect illusion, which is a very nice skill to have. I just know that it won't be until sometime in BG2. For weapons I went with daggers and single weapon style, and got the poisonous dagger from the smithy in Bereghost. Don't honestly remember if there where any equally awesome daggers in BG2 but if not I'll probably just invest a point in short swords as there are plenty of good ones of those.

elminster

In my opinion go for level 10. The reasons being you'll have slightly more health, additional thieving points, and you get another shadowstep.

Basillicum

@dib Yeah, daggers is definitely a nice option. Dagger of Venom is the most awesome dagger in BG1, yes. The only dagger that can possibly compare is Dagger of Longtooth, and that's only if whatever you're hitting won't get poisoned.

According to my calculations I will be able to get both stealth skills to 100 at level 9. This might be enough for BG1 - since I'll be using Shadow Armor and Worn Whispers - but after dual classing Shadow Armor won't be an option anymore. I think I've heard somewhere that daylight incurs penalty to stealth? If so, how much? I'm assuming daylight only affects Hiding in Shadows, so are there anything that affects Moving Silently?

I suppose I could consider going beyond level 10 as Shadowdancer to boost Detect Illusion as well, but I'm thinking BG2 delivers enough dispel, true seeing and the like for Detect Illusion to be kind of obsolete.

Xanar

@Basillicum IIRC only certain armors add penalties to move silently. Chain (which isn't an option) and Squeaky leathers come to mind.

kamuizin

I would go for quarterstaffs as they can backstab from what i heard, and as a mage you can give a double use now for the use of quarterstaffs. Being a shadowdance means you don't need to be locked in the combo of staff of the magi, which means you can go for staff of the ram, staff of striking, all other stuffs.

Basillicum

@kamuizin I am probably placing a point in staffs (staves?) after dual classing, as it will be one of the only weapons I can use as Mage and placing a new point in daggers would be a waste.


@Xanar I just tested equipping Shar-Teel with a full plate, but that had no effect on her stealth skills as far as I could see. She wears Drizzt's Mithral Chain already, which doesn't penalise her in any way either. Unless these penalties don't show under the character record?

kamuizin

Basillicum said:

@kamuizin I am probably placing a point in staffs (staves?) after dual classing, as it will be one of the only weapons I can use as Mage and placing a new point in daggers would be a waste.


@Xanar I just tested equipping Shar-Teel with a full plate, but that had no effect on her stealth skills as far as I could see. She wears Drizzt's Mithral Chain already, which doesn't penalise her in any way either. Unless these penalties don't show under the character record?

Staves (sry for my poor enlish, it's better than the time i switched elvens with elfens at least).

About armor penalities, if you're not using any mod, anything besides studded leather make impossible to hide in shadows as far as i know. Rogue rebalancing and other mods make a penality table to the use of heavier armors for thieves.

Xanar

Very odd. Chainmail should penalize stealth and move silently (even elven chain). I don't recall if it was implemented in vanilla BG, but I was 90% sure that those penalties were imposed in BG2. Could be flawed memory or perhaps it was not added to BG:EE when it was adapted to the new engine. With plate on, you shouldn't be able hide at all (not saying you can not because I haven't tested). Once this next patch is released I'll do some testing with fighter/thief and thief/mages (with various leathers to clarify).

kamuizin

As a thief, chain mail isn't even allowed to use, anything besides studded leather armor is out of range, rangers can use other armor kinds but if anything else heavier than studded leather armor is in place hide in shadows becomes grayed (locked to click).

You can however take off the armor, hide in shadows, and put it again without problems. I believe the thief script to be bugged also, so even with heavy armor in place if you use the thief script to always hide in shadows, it will force the ranger to make the attempts even if the button is grayed.

[Deleted User]

Basillicum said:

According to my calculations I will be able to get both stealth skills to 100 at level 9. This might be enough for BG1 - since I'll be using Shadow Armor and Worn Whispers - but after dual classing Shadow Armor won't be an option anymore. I think I've heard somewhere that daylight incurs penalty to stealth? If so, how much? I'm assuming daylight only affects Hiding in Shadows, so are there anything that affects Moving Silently?

Based on my testing, I'm fairly certain that BG simply averages your Hide and Move Silently for any and all stealth rolls. The data in this thread indicates that broad daylight halves your chance of successfully hiding (so a 100% chance from having 100 H/MS becomes 50%). In addition to boots of stealth, if you have a spare ring slot you can also use the Mercykiller Ring. It may not matter a whole lot, though, since so much of BG2 takes place in buildings or underground.

Xanar

@ kamuzin...Yes, that last comment was about him testing Shar-teel as a fighter/thief. The penalties should be imposed on any class trying to use stealth or move silently while in any kind of metal armor. I'm just not sure if it does.

TJ_Hooker

As far as I know, there are no thief skill penalties from wearing armour, unless the armour specifically says so (like in the hide armour item description). In the original manuals (and in P&P, I believe) penalties for various armours were listed, but they were never implemented.

lamaros

There are penalties in that you just cant use certain skills, though.

Basillicum

@Xanar & @kamuizin Sorry, I should elaborate. I know that I can't use stealth while wearing anything heavier than Studded Leather - equipping the full plate on Shar-Teel was just to test if that armor would have any effect on her stealth skills (which it didn't according to the character record page). Now, Drizzt's Mithral Chain Mail +4 is an exception to this rule, assumingly because it's made of Mithral. I don't think a vanilla thief would be able to wear it, but at least a Dual Class Fighter/Thief can, while still being able to use stealth. It's a little bit like Elven Chain allowing the casting of arcane spells.

Anyway, as far as I can see no armor (except the ones that have it listed on their description, like Hide Armor) incurs any penalty to stealth skills.

Kaigen said:

Basillicum said:

According to my calculations I will be able to get both stealth skills to 100 at level 9. This might be enough for BG1 - since I'll be using Shadow Armor and Worn Whispers - but after dual classing Shadow Armor won't be an option anymore. I think I've heard somewhere that daylight incurs penalty to stealth? If so, how much? I'm assuming daylight only affects Hiding in Shadows, so are there anything that affects Moving Silently?

Based on my testing, I'm fairly certain that BG simply averages your Hide and Move Silently for any and all stealth rolls. The data in this thread indicates that broad daylight halves your chance of successfully hiding (so a 100% chance from having 100 H/MS becomes 50%). In addition to boots of stealth, if you have a spare ring slot you can also use the Mercykiller Ring. It may not matter a whole lot, though, since so much of BG2 takes place in buildings or underground.

This is actually kinda funny. When I first played Baldur's Gate as a youngster I insisted that Hiding in Shadows would be easier if I placed my thief in an area where the game had chosen to place shadows. As I grew up I decided that my younger self was naive and stupid for believing that such an old game would have been able to handle the complex idea of interpreting where and where not there were shadows. Obviously my younger self was in the right here, according to the thread you linked. I'm happy for him.

If broad daylight actually halves the stealth check that's kinda harsh, but I suppose it's justified.

Nordom

I am not sure that both skills (HiS and MS) are needed according to this thread
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16633/how-exactly-do-the-mechanics-of-hide-in-shadows-and-move-silently-work-and-how-are-they-different

[Deleted User]

Basillicum said:

This is actually kinda funny. When I first played Baldur's Gate as a youngster I insisted that Hiding in Shadows would be easier if I placed my thief in an area where the game had chosen to place shadows. As I grew up I decided that my younger self was naive and stupid for believing that such an old game would have been able to handle the complex idea of interpreting where and where not there were shadows. Obviously my younger self was in the right here, according to the thread you linked. I'm happy for him.

If broad daylight actually halves the stealth check that's kinda harsh, but I suppose it's justified.

Well, to be fair to your grown up self, I'm pretty sure that quite a few of the light maps were screwed up in vanilla (meaning what looked like shadow might not be), so you could be forgiven for thinking there's no difference when, in many cases, there wasn't due to bugs.

Xanar

@TJ_Hooker- Thanks! That's probably where that bit of old info came from. The manual was wrong on many things, but they still seem to be rattling around.

@Nordom Actually, the thread says the opposite. Both are needed (a total of 400 points between the two) to successfully stealth 99% of the time in any conditions.

So, assuming you start with 18 dex, that's a +10% each to ms and his, 30 points at creation (50 in all at level 1), and 15 per level through level 10 before the xcap (15*9=135). IIRC the tome of dex will add another +5% to each when used (+10%). Shadow armor gives +15% and boots of stealth +20HiS and +15ms so, you get a grand total of 245 by the end of BGEE. My test with a halfling made me think this would be a terribly OP class in BG:EE and I stand by that conclusion, however; I don't see this as a viable option for thief dualed to mage runs. It's a huge amount of time and effort for what amounts to invisibility and a couple casts of shadowstep (3x backstab, no traps, and no typical thief uses like pick locks and detect traps). @Basillicum- It'd be interesting if you document your experiences and opinions as you play thorugh. I'd definitely read it.

Basillicum

Xanar said:

So, assuming you start with 18 dex, that's a +10% each to ms and his, 30 points at creation (50 in all at level 1), and 15 per level through level 10 before the xcap (15*9=135). IIRC the tome of dex will add another +5% to each when used (+10%). Shadow armor gives +15% and boots of stealth +20HiS and +15ms so, you get a grand total of 245 by the end of BGEE. My test with a halfling made me think this would be a terribly OP class in BG:EE and I stand by that conclusion, however; I don't see this as a viable option for thief dualed to mage runs. It's a huge amount of time and effort for what amounts to invisibility and a couple casts of shadowstep (3x backstab, no traps, and no typical thief uses like pick locks and detect traps). @Basillicum- It'd be interesting if you document your experiences and opinions as you play thorugh. I'd definitely read it.

Sure thing, I'll try, though of course it won't get very interesting before BG2:EE. One thing I like about this build is that ideally I should be able to stealth between spells when in battle, which would be safer and more fun than invisibility.

Just started the game now. 18 dex and currently 45 MS and 20 HS. I think that from here on I'm going to boost MS all the way to 100 before adding to HIS at all, just for testing purposes. Logically Hide in Plain Sight should be a total waste if I don't boost HIS at all, but as that doesn't seem to be the case I want to test it for myself.

Basillicum

@Xanar

So far I've reached level 6 and am on my way to Cloakwood Mines. It's fun playing Shadowdancer, and the class really pays off in situations where I can empty an entire cave complex all on my own (of course, there are a few slip-ups whenever stealthing fails, but Boots of Speed will more or less remove that issue I think).

The most fun part till now was probably the Flesh Golem Cave by the lighthouse (Safana area), where my shadowdancer took care of all the golems and traps by himself. However, a potion of perception was necessary for the traps.

14 THAC0, -2 AC and 7-10 damage means he does just alright as a frontline fighter, but I usually hide in plain sight to backstab as often as possible (EDIT: On that note, stealth seems to fail much more often in combat, so I think hiding in plain sight comes with a penalty). Whenever an enemy party consisting of archers surprises me I shadowstep behind them to stop their ranged ambush.

I'm starting to consider dual classing at level 12 instead of 10. Reasons being extra thieving skills, +1 proficiencies and one more THAC0. Any input on that?

Another thing that's definitely worth noting is that I'm starting to seriously regret my proficiency choices so far. Currently I have 1 Dagger, 1 Crossbow, 1 Single-Weapon. Looking a BG2 I think I should put a proficiency point in Katana, for Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. Apart from that I've realised that the points I earn as a mage will be kinda wasted.

At level 1 Mage I'm going to put a point in Quarterstaff (obviously). At level 6 the next best choice would be Dagger, but I've already taken a point in Dagger as Shadowdancer and will return to that when finished dualling. I don't think Dart or Sling will be worth it.

SionIV

Basillicum said:

@Xanar

So far I've reached level 6 and am on my way to Cloakwood Mines. It's fun playing Shadowdancer, and the class really pays off in situations where I can empty an entire cave complex all on my own (of course, there are a few slip-ups whenever stealthing fails, but Boots of Speed will more or less remove that issue I think).

The most fun part till now was probably the Flesh Golem Cave by the lighthouse (Safana area), where my shadowdancer took care of all the golems and traps by himself. However, a potion of perception was necessary for the traps.

14 THAC0, -2 AC and 7-10 means damage he does just alright as a frontline fighter, but I usually hide in plain sight to backstab as often as possible. Whenever an enemy party consisting of archers surprises me I shadowstep behind them to stop their ranged ambush.

I'm starting to consider dual classing at level 12 instead of 10. Reasons being extra thieving skills, +1 proficiencies and one more THAC0. Any input on that?

Another thing that's definitely worth noting is that I'm starting to seriously regret my proficiency choices so far. Currently I have 1 Dagger, 1 Crossbow, 1 Single-Weapon. Looking a BG2 I think I should put a proficiency point in Katana, for Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. Apart from that I've realised that the points I earn as a mage will be kinda wasted.

At level 1 Mage I'm going to put a point in Quarterstaff (obviously). At level 6 the next best choice would be Dagger, but I've already taken a point in Dagger as Shadowdancer and will return to that when finished dualling. I don't think Dart or Sling will be worth it.

1.) Single Weapon style is for RP flavor? Are some bucklers out there that are much more useful.

2.) Crossbow is great but dart would have been a better pick for you.

3.) Dagger of Venom is just about the best weapon in BG1 and in BG2 you'll have some amazing throwing daggers.

4.) The one reason i don't use Dak'kon's Zerth blade in BG2 is that if you do conjure up a weapon (Flame sword, Melfs Meteors etc) You'll unequip the weapon for a short time, and then you have to memorize those additional spells again. Unless they fix this in BG2:EE it's annoying enough for me and i won't use it.

5.) Dart is such an amazing prof to take. One dart can either poison (wounding) or stun the enemy. If you hit a mage with a dart of stunning or wounding you have already won the fight.

6.) The highest damage you will be able to get from backstab is from Quarterstaffs.

Basillicum

SionIV said:

1.) Single Weapon style is for RP flavor? Are some bucklers out there that are much more useful.

I thought about sword and shield style, yes, but the lack of magical bucklers in BG2 put me off. Also, single weapon style gives me extra critical chance, which is more important for this kind of character, I think. Still, I am considering adding one point to both two-handed style and sword and shield later on, depending on when I'm happy with my weapons arsenal.

SionIV said:

2.) Crossbow is great but dart would have been a better pick for you.

Crossbow was actually chosen a little bit for RP purposes (silently pretending it's a hand crossbow), but I'm sure darts are a good choice. To be honest I've never taken darts very seriously, but I hear great things.

SionIV said:

3.) Dagger of Venom is just about the best weapon in BG1 and in BG2 you'll have some amazing throwing daggers.

Yes, these were the reasons for me choosing Dagger in the first place, but I'm quite sure I could do BG1 without Dagger of Venom. As I'm planning ahead here the most important thing to me is the finished result.

SionIV said:

4.) The one reason i don't use Dak'kon's Zerth blade in BG2 is that if you do conjure up a weapon (Flame sword, Melfs Meteors etc) You'll unequip the weapon for a short time, and then you have to memorize those additional spells again. Unless they fix this in BG2:EE it's annoying enough for me and i won't use it.

Never thought about this, and it's definitely a good point, which makes me even more unsure of what to choose at level 8. Bugger.

SionIV

Basillicum said:

SionIV said:

1.) Single Weapon style is for RP flavor? Are some bucklers out there that are much more useful.

I thought about sword and shield style, yes, but the lack of magical bucklers in BG2 put me off. Also, single weapon style gives me extra critical chance, which is more important for this kind of character, I think. Still, I am considering adding one point to both two-handed style and sword and shield later on, depending on when I'm happy with my weapons arsenal.

SionIV said:

2.) Crossbow is great but dart would have been a better pick for you.

Crossbow was actually chosen a little bit for RP purposes (silently pretending it's a hand crossbow), but I'm sure darts are a good choice. To be honest I've never taken darts very seriously, but I hear great things.

SionIV said:

3.) Dagger of Venom is just about the best weapon in BG1 and in BG2 you'll have some amazing throwing daggers.

Yes, these were the reasons for me choosing Dagger in the first place, but I'm quite sure I could do BG1 without Dagger of Venom. As I'm planning ahead here the most important thing to me is the finished result.

SionIV said:

4.) The one reason i don't use Dak'kon's Zerth blade in BG2 is that if you do conjure up a weapon (Flame sword, Melfs Meteors etc) You'll unequip the weapon for a short time, and then you have to memorize those additional spells again. Unless they fix this in BG2:EE it's annoying enough for me and i won't use it.

Never thought about this, and it's definitely a good point, which makes me even more unsure of what to choose at level 8. Bugger.

Longswords - The reason to pick this is because there are so many longswords in BG2 just floating around. You can get Daystar very early, blade of roses which is an amazing +3 longsword right at the slums. Not to mention you get a longsword +1 right from the start in Irenicus Dungeon.

Scimitar - There are some amazing scimitars in the game, and if you're going to dual wield then you want either Belm (Scimitar) or Kundane (Short sword) in your of hand. You'll most probably end up with something like this when you get to end game / ToB.

Short Swords - You can buy the short sword of mask +4 right from the moment you get out of Irenicus Dungeon. It might be a good reason to pick shortsword for that. Not that many +4 weapons just floating around in early SoA without you having to fight anyone to get it.

Xanar

Hey Basillicum, thanks for the update! I think the single weapon style was a good choice. The extra thac0 and reduced critical roll are definitely worth it imho. With a 19 con it's worth using Buckley's buckler for regen during travel and rest. That's about the only time I use one. @SionIV- Her choice for darts over xbow is a good one. You'll get 3apr and with the new ones in BG:EE some elemental damage when it's useful. Darts are great for interrupting casters, too. A lot of rogue types would get 2 pips in 2H style(duh @ myself. Only fighter/thieves can, but 1 pip is still good) and backstab with the staff of the ram (in vanilla BG2) so, it's not a bad idea. As far as weapon proficiencies, they used to reset at the start Vanilla BG2 so, it shouldn't be a big deal. There's a good chance we'll see some more new weapons introduced as well so, maybe wait and see. Dualing at 12...yeah, I was afraid the lack of skill points might be painful. If you can stand the extra experience needed to regain thief levels, then go for it. Maybe check out the available thief skill boosting equipment to supplement the low point allocation of shadow dancer (who knows what BG2EE may bring). With BG2EE's release so close now, I'm just making new toons and brushing up on tactics. Super meta-gaming tactics will have to wait until we get the final versions of both BGs. Looking forward to more news as you progress!

Oh look, I got you name right, ha ha!

Basillicum

@SionIV - Both Short Swords and Scimitars are good choices. I'll probably hop on short swords for the last point in BG1, and have both of them by ToB.

@Xanar - Another argument for single weapon instead of sword and shield is the AC you get for single weapon, which makes bucklers (at least BG1 bucklers) redundant. Buckley's Buckler made an impression on other characters of mine though, but I decided to go without it this time. This character only has 15-16 constitution anyway (avoiding maxing all stats makes the game more fun, IMO, but he has 18 STR and 18 DEX), so it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

As I think I wrote earlier, I've never taken darts very seriously, but it seems like I should and I think I will after dualling to Mage.

I'll take a look at the available items and my current thieving skills when I've reached level 10, and then see if I feel I need a couple extra levels. If so I think it makes sense to put all the points in Find Traps, but I will still only have a grand total of 55 in that skill. How much is roughly needed for most of the traps in BG2 (as per vanilla, at least)? I seem to remember Imoen could take care of almost all of them, even though dual classed.

Another option that I've considered is Detect Illusion, though I've never used it before and am not entirely sure how it works or if it'd be worth it at all. Still, it would be nice for RP flavour considering I'm dual classing to Mage. :P

Xanar

Hmm, I don't recall Imoen's or Nalia's detect/disarm traps skill levels (BG2), but even in BG1 you need 100 to disarm the hardest ones (the same is true of BG2). Considering you're using the shadow dancer (with only 15 skill points per level), it seems like you may want max HiPS. Depending how things change in BG2EE, shadow dancer should be able to remain hidden with a cloak of non-detection so long as stealth checks are passed. Maybe grab a 2nd thief to cover traps and locks? Worst case you could use Yoshimo (If you don't mind he's a traitorous scum-sucker). The new npc Hexxat may be a good option if Imoen and/or Nalia can't cover it.

Detect illusion is an excellent and underused skill. It's the rogue's version of true sight and iirc the points are % chance to dispel per round. My x/thieves always get it to avoid backstabbers in BG2. I generally focus on DT, OL, and DI, forgoing points in any other skills (unless dual-classing into thief). Invisibility items and potions replace stealth abilities, but it's not practical for shadow dancer. Besides, magi have the spell and there are items/other kits (npcs) that grant uses-per-day of true sight.

You've still got a few levels to go and the dex tome will give you a 5% boost to all skills except DI. For now I'll wait for your next update ^^

[Deleted User]

I don't think Detect Illusion works particularly well with this build; you can't use it while stealthed or attacking, and unless I'm mistaken you don't have the points to get it up to 100%, which means it may take multiple rounds for it to remove whatever effect you're trying to get around. You might be better off just throwing a few more points into HiS/MS in order to combat those stealth penalties. Your tactics work best when you can reliably count on hiding in the middle of combat.

On the Find Traps score, Imoen does pretty well, but she comes with an 85. There's the Ring of Danger Sense which provides +25%, but I think you'd still have to use potions for your Shadowdancer to be able to function as the main trapfinder.

Basillicum

I've decided that I will not put any points in anything else than stealth skills, as any other skill would end up mediocre at best. With the updated Shadowdancer kit I should be able to get enough points in Move Silently and Hide in Shadows by level 10, so I might even dual class at end of BG1, to get started.

The new Shadowdancer kit partly crashes the party for me, though, as I wanted the dual classed Mage to be at least a decent backstabber.

Currently my character is halfway broken. As of the last update to the kit he has lost x2 backstabability (until he reaches level 9, and he will never gain x3 backstabability) but without gaining the extra skill points he should've got. I'm waiting to see if there will be a fix at an imminent update and I've already moaned a little bit about it here. If no fix shows up I'll have to consider using EE Keeper, but I don't know how to make it a perfect fix.

[Deleted User]

Fixing the skill points with EEKeeper should be pretty easy. EEKeeper just shows you the distribution of skill points from your class instead of confounding the numbers by showing your total with dex and racial bonuses added in, so all you have to do is add up 30 (initial) skill points plus 20 for each level and distribute accordingly. No matter what they do, the extra skill points from leveling up compared to the old version won't be credited to your existing character automatically. The bonus to HiS/MS at level one might update the next time you level up, but otherwise you'll have to add that in on top.

If you're really broken up about the backstabbing, the progressions have been externalized, so modding it for yourself is as easy as exporting "backstab.2da" with Near Infinity and editing it with notepad.