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Missed Opportunities

rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Originally, I was going to write something about charm dialogue (because I couldn't find that thread), but, as I wrote this out, I realized it was more about missed opportunities in character development.

This weekend, I spawned most of the recruitable NPCs and charmed them (except Viconia, which I didn't want to bother with because of her MR) and then spoke to them. Some of them, like Ajantis, are no different when charmed v. not. Some of them talk about themselves a bit (Garrick talks about his music, Xzar tells you he's Zhent and has been sent to figure out who is spreading rumors about their organization), some of them give you info (Xan will actually give you a journal update on the Iron Throne - he says he is a diplomat of sorts between Evereska and human lands, is investigating the Iron Throne, but was locked up before he could find anything out). Two kind of caught my attention, though:

Safana, when charmed, will say something about how you're the only person she doesn't have to pretend to be attracted to.
Kagain got me. When you charm him, he says something along the lines of "I don't have any friends, so I don't know why you're talking to me. I don't know anything." Heart-breaking!

Really, I wish they hadn't just thrown all these characters out in BG2. I wish they'd developed them more deeply because so many of them have these interesting backgrounds we get little snippets of. Safana could have been a romance option and you could slowly peel back the layers to find a rather fragile girl, who masks her insecurities with sluttiness. Could have also unlocked another triangle with Coran (and one that would be better than Aerie and Haer'Dalis - yuck).
Kagain, maybe a friendship, maybe even the ability to change his alignment. A sad dwarf who results to violence as a result of his loneliness.

What other characters do you wish got more development? Recruitable or not.

Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    revaar said:

    I always wished that Kivan and Branwen had something to say when you fight Tazok and Tranzig, respectively. What's the point of having those specific villians in their backstories if nothing happens when they get to confront them>

    You get this in... BGT tweaks i think. Shar-teel should also say something to Angelo as he is her father.
  • Night_WatchNight_Watch Member Posts: 514
    Yeslick. I'd expect him to be mad as heck at Rieltar but sadly, no words are traded.
  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    Safana, in particular, always felt like a wasted opportunity to me. For most of the reasons listed in the OP. Also because she's a sexy pirate. ;)
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I would have loved if Safana could return as a joinable NPC, even more so knowing about her charmed dialogue.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited January 2014
    Thread necro!

    One example is Ajantis. He has this whole dialogue in the game files with a guy by the name of Satos (and a few others no doubt). It concerns some kind of keep that Ajantis has been sent to assist with at the request of Duke Eltan. Apparently there are missing monks. Just seems like it would have been a cool thing to expand on his character. Instead of the whole "I'm just here to deal with the bandits" thing they went with.
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    @elminster
    that sounds interesting! Maybe they removed/didnt expand on some of the banters so all the NPCs would be equally silent?
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Ajantis is one of my favorite characters. A lot of folks say he's flat, just a bland old paladin. But, to me, it always seemed like he had a lot more personality than we got to see. When you kick him out of the party, he says something like "But... We were comrades, bound by honor. *sigh* Why must everything be so difficult?"
  • DreamingViksDreamingViks Member Posts: 87
    I just haft to say that your theory about Safana is the opposite of depth. This is an extremely common take om female sexuality, it's never that perhaps she only wants to sleep around cause she enjoys it. I never hear the same suspicions about Coran.

    EVEN SO!!! I hate that they killed so many off in BG2, what gives? And why is Garrick so DAFT in BG2? He acts like hes half asleep, he was dreamy in BG1 but fully alert nonetheless. I LOVE GARRICK GAAAHA!!!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Aristillius said:

    @elminster
    that sounds interesting! Maybe they removed/didnt expand on some of the banters so all the NPCs would be equally silent?

    Its just as likely to be budget reasons. There really isn't anywhere in the game where the quest could have been done (that doesn't already have content). Which means they'd have to add in a new area.
  • IsandirIsandir Member Posts: 458
    I think Jaheira and Khalid were an immense wasted opportunity. As part of the canon party, Harpers and friends of Gorion, they had a rich background to draw from and could have been expanded much more. In addition to simple background knowledge, they could also have served as mentors to the PC, helping him/her realize his/her potential. While Jaheira did obviously get fleshed out somewhat in BG2, it's already in a different context, and we never really get to find out what made Khalid tick.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    DreamingViks said:

    I just haft to say that your theory about Safana is the opposite of depth. This is an extremely common take om female sexuality, it's never that perhaps she only wants to sleep around cause she enjoys it. I never hear the same suspicions about Coran.

    EVEN SO!!! I hate that they killed so many off in BG2, what gives? And why is Garrick so DAFT in BG2? He acts like hes half asleep, he was dreamy in BG1 but fully alert nonetheless. I LOVE GARRICK GAAAHA!!!

    Well, there's a difference between "depth" and "unique." It may be a common theme (which I'm not sure I agree with), but that doesn't mean it wouldn't add depth to Safana.

    I do agree on Garrick. He wasn't the smartest guy in BG1 (he was actually pretty naive), but he was definitely a dummy in BG2. He's one of my favorites, too :)
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    DreamingViks said:

    I just haft to say that your theory about Safana is the opposite of depth. This is an extremely common take om female sexuality, it's never that perhaps she only wants to sleep around cause she enjoys it. I never hear the same suspicions about Coran.

    EVEN SO!!! I hate that they killed so many off in BG2, what gives? And why is Garrick so DAFT in BG2? He acts like hes half asleep, he was dreamy in BG1 but fully alert nonetheless. I LOVE GARRICK GAAAHA!!!

    Think it's not so much that Safana doesn't enjoy sleeping around. She probably WOULD, if there were a lot of people she was attracted to around, but she usually sleeps around with people she's not attracted to in order to get something from them.
  • AnprionsaAnprionsa Member Posts: 106
    Isandir said:

    I think Jaheira and Khalid were an immense wasted opportunity. As part of the canon party, Harpers and friends of Gorion, they had a rich background to draw from and could have been expanded much more. In addition to simple background knowledge, they could also have served as mentors to the PC, helping him/her realize his/her potential. While Jaheira did obviously get fleshed out somewhat in BG2, it's already in a different context, and we never really get to find out what made Khalid tick.

    I respectfully disagree. Khalid isn't supposed to be fleshed out. He died prematurely and we shouldn't know everything about any character, just like in real life. We should be sad when he died because we don't know enough about him, yes I agree they didn't do enough there. But that is why we get that from Jaheira we feel bad because of what she is going through. Relationships are cut short sometimes, just like they ought to be in a game like this. It bothers me sometimes that there are so many cameos from the first game when it's a different nation you end up in for the second game.
  • IsandirIsandir Member Posts: 458
    koawinter said:


    I respectfully disagree. Khalid isn't supposed to be fleshed out. He died prematurely and we shouldn't know everything about any character, just like in real life. We should be sad when he died because we don't know enough about him, yes I agree they didn't do enough there. But that is why we get that from Jaheira we feel bad because of what she is going through. Relationships are cut short sometimes, just like they ought to be in a game like this. It bothers me sometimes that there are so many cameos from the first game when it's a different nation you end up in for the second game.

    I agree entirely for the second game, but I think the OP was referring to the first game. I actually rather like they way Jaheira's story unfolds in the second, and I have no problem with Khalid being gone. I just think that BG1 could have developed all of the characters better through closer links to their back-stories, and in Khalid and Jaheira's case, the link to Gorion would have been ideal.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited January 2014
    heh. I posted something on a different thread that I think would fit here. What I liked about some mods and what I would add from BG1 characters into BG2


    The Darkest Day mod did a good job filling in the blanks
    a. Shar-Teel in the prison: brilliant
    b. Kivan in the Imnesvale: obvious (think he'd live a mourning solitary life as a ranger after getting his vengeance)
    c. Yeslick in the Temple District (should also have Branwen there)
    d. Kagain in the Gate (shoulda been opening up shop in Waukeen's Promenade. I'd like it if he was only a merchant, no longer an adventurer. "There's no money in this")

    Woulda liked to see (none of these needed to be necessarily recruitable)
    a. Alora pickpocketing unaware merchants in Trademeet
    b. Eldoth in the Shadow Thieves (maybe with Skie, but I think it would be better if they did not last)
    c. Branwen in the temple district or trying to defeat Umar
    d. Ajantis not doomed (maybe a trainer for the Order of the Radiant Heart since he was Keldorn's Squire... perhaps he is a rival of Anomen's), and some more choices with Xzar and Monty
    e. XAN as the unpleasable critic in the Five Flagon's Inn Theater (sigh... this play is so pointless) Would be great for the Bard Stronghold challenge to be to perform a play that Xan actually enjoys! :)



    I had this whole crazy idea with the Skie and Eldoth "romance" (warning: I hate Skie!)

    I was thinking that you can meet Skie in Athkatla working some awful job as a 'waitress' in the Copper Coronet under a different identity. You recognize her but she refuses to acknowledge you. You later find out she is on the run from Eldoth! She's ashamed of having basically lost her inheritance after running away with the bad boy. If you press her she eventually admits her identity, and tells you how Eldoth is crazy and is coming after her. She then asks you for your protection, since she thinks Eldoth is in town looking for her and fears for her safety. She wants you to take care of Eldoth, and tells you the shadow thieves may know where he is. She wants to be there when you find him.

    Alternatively, you can also run into Eldoth first in the Docks (or after talking to disguised Skie). He asks for your help finding Skie... He tells you his side of the story: after their last heist Skie put him to sleep and ran off with all the loot! He heard she was in town and needs your help finding her. He comes with you to find her

    Eventually, no matter what side you choose, you eventually meet them down. When you are about to kill Eldoth or Skie the other all of the sudden jumps in! They both realize that they really "love" eachother and don't want the other one killed after all.

    They both give eachother apologies, share a "romantic" kiss and walk off into the night, as your charname slaps his forehead with the palm of his hand repeatedly, Jaheira gives a dismissive snort, Viconia notes how pathetic Skie is and Minsc comments about how cute a couple Boo thinks they are.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I will say, I actually really enjoyed the Garrick cameo. I thought it was amusing and really fit into his character. He has horrible judgement when it comes to attractive women, and him losing track of his senses when they are involved doesn't seem to odd to me after his whole ordeal with Skie.
    Remember he says something after that encounter like "I guess she was evil" or whatnot
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    My problem with the Garrick cameo is that he doesn't recognize you AT ALL and he has the gnome telling him what to say. Compare this to BG1 where he'll stand up to Eldoth and even flirt with Skie in front of him.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Well, I just viewed it as he's just too distracted by his latest foolish infatuation to notice his surroundings :)

    Also, I viewed his Ski interaction as silly puppy-dog love stuff, not really serious, confident flirting. I always kinda saw Garrick as an oblivious character who follows his heart and his (other) head rather than his brain
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