BG2: Disappointed by ascension ending; for some reason it means abandoning companions

taltamir

Unless you choose to give up the divinity, your allies get a bad ending. In particular the romances who get extra screwed if you don't choose to remain mortal.

You have been gaining power and divinity throughout the entire campaign, developing your first divine powers during the trip to neeshkel mines (a daily use of CLW or Minor drain... ah, nostalgia), but suddenly when you ascend to full divinity you completely abandon all of them.

Have the writers forgotten about avatars? Because the first thing I would have done is plonked one down right there and then to continue adventuring with my love, friends, and baby sister.

Also, for some reason imoen has to give up her tiny fragment of bhaal for you to ascend, but aerie's baby does not.

Lord_Tansheron

I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Quite the contrary. You cannot even begin to grasp how gods view the mortal world, how insignificant their old lives and attachments seem. Love? Friendship? Irrelevant. You're a being of unfathomable power now, and your only concern is increasing that power.

Think of it this way: what was important to you in elementary school? When you were five years old? And how important are those things to you now? Multiply that by a billion, and you might come close to what it must feel like to ascend to godhood.

As for the baby, it's unclear what happens with Bhaal's essence in the second generation. Draconis is a thing, but not backed up by much information; it could be speculated that the essence does not pass down. As such, Aeris' baby does not carry anything of Bhaal, except perhaps some weird genetic markers (blame the diabetes on him).

Some endings are tragic independent of CHARNAME's influence being lost, but that too is understandable. The people you associate with lead rough lives. There are few old adventurers out there, and for a reason. Some of your companions have huge personality problems, and it's no big surprise that they'll eventually get into a mess they can't climb out of. But hey, being a barmaid's not the worst job in the world...

taltamir

Lord_Tansheron said:

I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Quite the contrary. You cannot even begin to grasp how gods view the mortal world, how insignificant their old lives and attachments seem. Love? Friendship? Irrelevant. You're a being of unfathomable power now, and your only concern is increasing that power.

As a good aligned character, I spent the entire saga (from the very begining of BG1) battling and OVERCOMING the divine "taint" of evil. From the very first dreams where I denied and overcame my divine nature to acquire curing spells instead of evil spells.
And the solar at the end game to whom you tell your choice just congratulated you on triumphing over your divinity, overcoming its effects on your personality and proving yourself as worthy. Furthermore, it is made clear that you are ascending to divinity by consuming a tainted EVIL divine essence and that you conquer it and become a GOOD aligned Deity.

Lord_Tansheron said:

Think of it this way: what was important to you in elementary school? When you were five years old? And how important are those things to you now? Multiply that by a billion, and you might come close to what it must feel like to ascend to godhood.

As for the five year old analogy... While my choice of entertainment and hobbies changed, as well as being introduced to "more important things". What didn't change is caring for friends and family. In fact, that has been growing in value my entire life.

I could see charname growing beyond adventuring. But not beyond caring for his loved ones.

Furthermore, all those aasimar running around are proof that celestial beings are NOT too enlightened to love a mortal.
And if you want to go a step above angels and straight to gods... Bhaal indeed had children out of selfish desire for power rather than love...
But remember the elven queen who used to be in love with irenicus? she is a also demi-god. Her father is one of the Good aligned elven gods.

Lord_Tansheron

taltamir said:

As a good aligned character, I spent the entire saga (from the very begining of BG1) battling and OVERCOMING the divine "taint" of evil. From the very first dreams where I denied and overcame my divine nature to acquire curing spells instead of evil spells.
And the solar at the end game to whom you tell your choice just congratulated you on triumphing over your divinity, overcoming its effects on your personality and proving yourself as worthy. Furthermore, it is made clear that you are ascending to divinity by consuming a tainted EVIL divine essence and that you conquer it and become a GOOD aligned Deity.

Being good doesn't mean you have to continue your romance. In fact, you may even decide that it's better for them not get too close to a god, for various reasons. Letting go of old attachments can actually be a sign of great wisdom and maturity. Don't forget, being a god comes with responsibilities. Those responsibilities might put an undue burden on your former friends and romantic interests, and to protect them from that burden you take one for the team and leave them. Also, particularly as a good-aligned deity you'd have to consider the big picture. Your own personal history is insignificant when compared to the good you could do in this world, and if all it takes is you leaving your lover then you're blessed to pay so little a price.

If anything, I could see an EVIL deity remain with a mortal, for selfish desire, and to induce dependency and adoration in your mate.

taltamir said:

As for the five year old analogy... While my choice of entertainment and hobbies changed, as well as being introduced to "more important things". What didn't change is caring for friends and family. In fact, that has been growing in value my entire life.

I think you grossly overestimate a five-year-old's concepts of family. Even if not, then go four-year old. I've met several who'd happily sell their brother for a bag of candy, not because they're evil but because they don't know any better. I'm not disputing that there are enlightened, precocious five-year-olds out there, but those are fringe cases; anyway, I'm just illustrating a point, not drawing concrete conclusions on a particular case. Anecdotal evidence and all that, besides, we tend to look at things through age-tinted glasses.

taltamir said:

Furthermore, all those aasimar running around are proof that celestial beings are NOT too enlightened to love a mortal.
And if you want to go a step above angels and straight to gods... Bhaal indeed had children out of selfish desire for power rather than love...
But remember the elven queen who used to be in love with irenicus? she is a also demi-god. Her father is one of the Good aligned elven gods.

And how many of those demigods do you know that have a close relationship with their divine parent? How many of them had close contact and were personally raised by them? Yeah sure, you are granted powers and the occasional boon, but that barely puts you a step above clerics. Even good-aligned deities may have motives for siring progeny with mortals that are very far from romantic love as we understand it. Again, you're an ant trying to grasp a mountain here; the very concept of "love" is different for a god.

lamaros

Umm... just don't become a god if it's that big a deal?

TethorilofLathander

I would somewhat agree if it were a good character suddenly changing his/her mind at the end, kind of like a Frodo in Mount Doom situation. But I think it's better to have that choice at the end, especially if you're evilly aligned but also to show how strong your character can be to resist the temptation of the Murder portfolio.

Shin

I felt the ME3 extended cut "control" ending featured quite well how it might feel to give up who you are to become something different: you still retain the general outlook of the person you used to be, but your world is no longer the same.

That said, it wouldn't be unfeasible for a good-aligned PC who becomes god to at least look out for his/her companions in the future.

Drugar

Think of it as going from general wageslave in an international coorporation to being catapulted to board member. Sure, you're *like* to have lunch with your work buddies like you always used to but you're on a completely different level now. You're needed in Paris, Sidney, Barcelona all the time. And even if you were to take time and sit down with your old collegues, you'd be beset on all sides by other wageslaves who want to pitch you (the influential board member) new ideas and ask you for favors, making lunch an exhausting experience. Also, if you slack off even a little, the CEO will kick you off the board and put you back in your wageslave life.

It's like that, only the company is the entire world.
When you choose divinity you also choose the responsibility that goes with it. When Mystra, Kelemvor and Cyric became gods, they almost fucked the entire world by clinging to their mortal lives and values (mostly Mystra because Mystra's a gorram idiot). Especially as god of Death, you can't just do whatever you want because you have the power. You have a responsibility. You're not just a superbeing, you are the incarnation of death and govern the passing of every creature in the world. All day, every day.
You either take that power and responsibility, or choose love and friendship and a normal mortal life. You can't have both.

Slightly offtopic sidenote for general clarification:
Bhaal was the Lord of Murder by choice, in the sense that he was the deity of Death. Murder (mostly ritualistic) was his personal preference, which is how he came by the title. Charname taking his power means she'd still get the Death portfolio (currently held by Kelemvor who also holds 'The Dead' portfolio which means he takes care of the souls after their passing, not just in their moment of dying). Being an Evil Charname probably means reestablishing the Murder theme, whereas a Good charname might change it into Self Sacrifice or just keep it as a neutral Death.
Regardless, she will have to deal with governing Death in whatever way, shape or form she chooses.

element

I think the assumption is if those were your priorities you'd remain mortal, and that in ascending I think they wanted it to seem like you were leaving your mortal life behind.

of course there's no real reason you would have to leave your companions completely in the dark but I just don't think the game takes that mentality into account.

Durenas

Drugar said:

Slightly offtopic sidenote for general clarification:
Bhaal was the Lord of Murder by choice, in the sense that he was the deity of Death. Murder (mostly ritualistic) was his personal preference, which is how he came by the title. Charname taking his power means she'd still get the Death portfolio (currently held by Kelemvor who also holds 'The Dead' portfolio which means he takes care of the souls after their passing, not just in their moment of dying). Being an Evil Charname probably means reestablishing the Murder theme, whereas a Good charname might change it into Self Sacrifice or just keep it as a neutral Death.
Regardless, she will have to deal with governing Death in whatever way, shape or form she chooses.

Actually, from what I understood from the dialog with the Solar in the pocket plane, you wouldn't get the portfolio of Death, since that's in the hands of Cyric at the time of the games. You would get the power of Bhaal, but it isn't connected to any portfolio. You become a sort of demigod. Whatever portfolio you get is unclear; it could require further arbitration by Ao.

BaldursCat

I think, I'd only ever choose ascension if I wasn't in a romance path, which I always do so the chances of me ascending are somewhere between nowt and bugger all...

Oddly enough

the one romance which could have a satisfying if somewhat delayed ending if you ascend is the Keldorn romance mod. His eventual passing doesn't change so if you do ascend you know you if you chose to be a good deity you could be together again because of the status he is elevated to, though only trouble is you need the metagame knowledge to start with to justify the decision.

Drugar

BaldursCat said:

the one romance which could have a satisfying if somewhat delayed ending if you ascend is the Keldorn romance mod. His eventual passing doesn't change so if you do ascend you know you if you chose to be a good deity you could be together again because of the status he is elevated to, though only trouble is you need the metagame knowledge to start with to justify the decision.

There's a Keldorn romance mod? Isn't he like, 60? And Charname 20? I guess he moved on from his wife rather quick too. Ah well, there's also an Imoen romance so who am I to complain. Nice touch that he realises they'll be together in the end anyway.

@Amberion
I always took it as Charname reclaiming the portfolio, which was why Cyric got so interested (considering it's his power that'll be partially taken away).
It'd be weird if she ascended to generic godhood and Ao eventually just gave her the portfolio of goldfish or farming equipment, since those were still unclaimed.

BaldursCat

Drugar said:

BaldursCat said:

the one romance which could have a satisfying if somewhat delayed ending if you ascend is the Keldorn romance mod. His eventual passing doesn't change so if you do ascend you know you if you chose to be a good deity you could be together again because of the status he is elevated to, though only trouble is you need the metagame knowledge to start with to justify the decision.

There's a Keldorn romance mod? Isn't he like, 60? And Charname 20? I guess he moved on from his wife rather quick too. Ah well, there's also an Imoen romance so who am I to complain. Nice touch that he realises they'll be together in the end anyway.

Yup, there's a mod...

it's based on the premise that Keldorn is a lot younger than most people seem to assume - 40ish rather than the 50-60 year old people guess at - and to be honest it makes sense. For starters his kids are tween/older teen so he can't be that old, unless Maria either had children very late or is also much younger than him - but the in-game indication is that they are contemporaries; and he's not completely grey if you really look at the portrait. Plus he's been a paladin longer than they usually survive so by pally standards he is old. Also his epilogue says "years later" which suggests a good amount of time passes between his retirement and taking on the Hill Giants. In fact the mod author refers to a canon event 20 years after the Bhaalspawn saga. I can't imagine him being in any fit state to do that at 80 so him dying at 60 makes sense.

As for the romance itself it can only happen if you allow Keldorn and Maria to reconcile, at which point she realises it isn't actually what she wants and ends it anyway and it then takes a very very very long time for the romance to progress and only really become committed in the ToB. Sorry if I wan't clear, he doesn't realise you'll be together again, you need to have the knowledge of his epilogue - which doesn't change whether you romance him or not - to realise that you might be reunited if you ascend.

Schneidend

@Drugar
@Amberion
The game doesn't completely clear it up, as I recall. A friend of mine once ran a campaign that took place fifteen years after ToB, and he had a pre-defined Lawful Neutral CHARNAME ascend to godhood and took Murder, but sort of expanded it to cover the execution of criminals. So, perhaps in the case of a non-Evil PC, "Murder" is used toward some constructive end.

taltamir

Lord_Tansheron said:

Being good doesn't mean you have to continue your romance.

missing the point.

Lord_Tansheron said:

And how many of those demigods do you know that have a close relationship with their divine parent? How many of them had close contact and were personally raised by them? Yeah sure, you are granted powers and the occasional boon, but that barely puts you a step above clerics. Even good-aligned deities may have motives for siring progeny with mortals that are very far from romantic love as we understand it. Again, you're an ant trying to grasp a mountain here; the very concept of "love" is different for a god.

You summon and avatar of Rillifane, the father of Queen Ellesime's to aid in defending her city, he explains the convoluted magic reasons why he can't save her himself and asks you to do so
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-7/areas/suldanessellar.php

When her boyfriend tried to usurp the tree of life as an elven god, it was her love that caused the gods to show mercy and at her discretion merely curse him with mortality...
And her father, Rillifane, personally went the extra mile and put in another aspect to the curse, making him forget HER specifically.