Questions Concerning Dual Wielding

Nic_Mercy

How many pips is ideal for the offhand weapon if it is different from the main hand?

I'm fairly sure only one attack comes from the off-hand and all other attacks are made with the main hand. So if that is indeed the case, is there any real reason to go beyond 3 pips in your offhand weapon? 3 pips provides as much thac0 bonus as you can get and the 4th and 5th pip will only add a point of extra damage each along with some minus speed factor. I am just wondering if 2 points of damage and a slightly faster swing for only one of your attacks is worth the investment when instead you could max out a different proficiency for main hand use if you wanted to swap weapons based on different foes and maintain your attack rate.

Anyone have any insights into this? Or special methods of min-maxing with proficiency points when dual wielding?

I have a Fighter dualed Thief character that dual wields. He uses a long sword in his main hand and a scimitar in his off-hand for an apr weapon. I am wondering if I should just try to max longsword and scimitar or if it might be worthwhile to save some points in scimitar and grab some in Katana for Celestial Fury in BG2. While I know Celestial Fury has no upgrades in TOB it's still a fairly potent weapon especially though most of SoA. I had intended to use Angurvadal +5 in TOB as my mian hand for 22 str and its other bonuses but I was curious about how the various proficiency levels actually affect the off-hand attacks.

Jarrakul

The off-hand doesn't get bonus attacks from proficiency, but it does get everything else. Whether you should put more than 3 points into it depends on whether you're gonna be able to max out multiple on-hands. You'll be better off at Longsword 5, Scimitar 5 than you would be at Longsword 5, Scimitar 3, Katana 2, because switching from Longsword to Katana isn't going to be worth it with those proficiencies. Depending on how you managed your proficiencies during the dual, you might only be able to max Katana late in TOB, which probably isn't even worth bothering with. But if you can max Katana in SOA, it's probably worth leaving Scimitar at 2 or 3 for awhile.

ZanathKariashi

I honestly wouldn't go above proficiency for a Speed weapon off-hand since that attack is generally for to be ineffective any way vs +3 or higher required enemies.

For non-speed weapons, whatever. If the weapon class has some decent variety, just for that and dual-wield both Axes have some good choices (Stonefire and the cold/acid axe from D'narise Keep are both +3 and reliable weapons for 99% of your journey through BG2). Flails are another good combo, especially for a F/C who can't use speed weapons anyway. Even clubs are are pretty good. Gnasher/Blackblood can easily carry you through most of the game, trading Gnasher/blackblood for Club of Blowing-Yourself-Up and red-dragon shield (and several other +fire resistance pieces/spells) for the +4 and above enemies.

Lord_Tansheron

If you have the proficiency to spare, go for it, otherwise it's almost irrelevant given the OH is 20% of your output at best.

That being said, with a full party you rarely have weapons to switch around anyway, so putting points into many different types shouldn't happen all that often. Just never ever compromise MH proficiency in favor of OH and you'll be fine.

ZanathKariashi said:

Club of Blowing-Yourself-Up and red-dragon shield (and several other +fire resistance pieces/spells)

WEAK! *Real* men...

Nic_Mercy

Thanks for the advice all of you I appreciate it!

Nic_Mercy

Also.. here's an interesting dual wield question... is there any mh/oh combo that might equal or exceed the performance of using an apr off hand? Particularly weapons of the same type if possible! (like say two long swords or two clubs or what not)

Lord_Tansheron

Of the same type? No.

In general though there are scenarios where Crom Faeyr is a better offhand, namely when your base STR is very low (and your party would not benefit from a different weapons distribution). I haven't done the math, but The Equalizer may also be better against Chaotic Evil/Lawful Good opponents due to the way it works (bonuses added to MH also).

These are mostly fringe cases, though. In general a +APR OH will be the best bet, simply because the MH is such a big part of your damage output.

Nic_Mercy

Lord_Tansheron said:

Of the same type? No.

In general though there are scenarios where Crom Faeyr is a better offhand, namely when your base STR is very low (and your party would not benefit from a different weapons distribution). I haven't done the math, but The Equalizer may also be better against Chaotic Evil/Lawful Good opponents due to the way it works (bonuses added to MH also).

These are mostly fringe cases, though. In general a +APR OH will be the best bet, simply because the MH is such a big part of your damage output.

So then dualing Angurvadal +5 as my MH and Scarlet Ninja-to as my OH should be a fairly decent set up for a Fighter dualed to Thief (once he has UAI) then yes? +5 THACO, +2-5 fire damage, 22 strength, Immune to level drain all seem like nice bonuses from Angurvadal

[Deleted User]

Yeah, Crom Faeyr would be one possibility, but its base damage is so good you'd likely want to use it as a main hand anyway. Angurvadal is in the same boat, and its 22 STR is less likely to have much of an impact. Some quick notepad math suggests that Equalizer is comparable to a speed weapon in late SoA (provided your static damage bonuses aren't too amazing), but as a +3 weapon it obsoletes, which prevents it from keeping up with speed weapons, which still get the bulk of their added damage from an extra attack on the main hand. That's pretty much it for vanilla.

Item Upgrade adds two possibilities: Upgraded Daystar and Fulcrum. Fulcrum is utter cheese, pair it with the Club of Detonation for maximum effect. Upgraded Daystar is a bit more reasonable, and could be competitive with a speed weapon in the off hand against evil creatures. Pair it with Angurvadal to be dual-wielding longswords.

sarevok57

one of my favourite weapon combos is; axe of the unyielding +5 and defender of easthaven, axe as main hand with 10% chance to kill virtually anyone instantly, and defender of easthaven for off hand for 20% resistnace to slashing,piercing and crushing, plus the regeneration from the axe is nice and con bonus as well, a great two weapon combo for defense and offense at the same time

Lord_Tansheron

Nic_Mercy said:

So then dualing Angurvadal +5 as my MH and Scarlet Ninja-to as my OH should be a fairly decent set up for a Fighter dualed to Thief (once he has UAI) then yes? +5 THACO, +2-5 fire damage, 22 strength, Immune to level drain all seem like nice bonuses from Angurvadal

It's a decent setup to be sure, though not the best. Flail of Ages+5, Crom Faeyr, and Club of Detonation+5 are better weapons than Angurvadal (assuming 19+ STR; with less, Angurvadal gets better and better, as does CF; et vice versa). FoA in particular stands out because its +3 and +4 versions are also very good weapons, and available fairly early (or ridiculously early, in the case of +3).

If you want to use Longswords especially, though, I recommend Daystar to start with. There's lots of undead to fight, and those enemies that aren't undead are usually evil. It's a pretty good weapon and available very early (if you don't mind a smash-and-grab). Though to be fair, as a F->T you probably have a lot of proficiency points available and can easily max out multiple weapon types.

Keep in mind that these rankings are by damage primarily. There's a few weapons with "special effects" that can be considered even at lower output. The two most prominent ones are Celestial Fury, which stuns on hit (unless save) and can trivialize several fights; and Axe of the Unyielding, which slices through hordes like a blowtorch through butter.

Kaigen said:

Item Upgrade adds two possibilities: Upgraded Daystar and Fulcrum. Fulcrum is utter cheese, pair it with the Club of Detonation for maximum effect. Upgraded Daystar is a bit more reasonable, and could be competitive with a speed weapon in the off hand against evil creatures. Pair it with Angurvadal to be dual-wielding longswords.

Upgraded Daystar is a very good weapon, and quite high on the rankings (#4); the vast majority of enemies are evil, and against undead, well... Fulcrum is only good for characters that can't achieve grandmastery, for all others use Pitchwife instead, it's pretty amazing and available very early. If anything deserves to be called cheese, it's that club...

Nic_Mercy

Looking at item upgrade there's also an option to upgrade Celestial Fury to +5 >_> that seems very appealing...

Lord_Tansheron

It looks that way, but it's actually an incredibly tiny upgrade, damage-wise. It's mainly so that it's not blanked by ToB's +3 and lower immunities on bosses.

Nic_Mercy

The party I am running is premade outside of Imoen. It's a Dragon Disciple, a Fighter dualed Thief (dualwielding), a Fighter dualed Cleric (also dual wielding), an Inquisitor and a Ranger/Cleric multiclass. I'm not sure of how best to choose my weapons still. You guys have given me a great deal to think about. The Fighter>Cleric seems a perfect candidate for FoA and/or Crom Faer (assuming I give up the components which I AM leaning towards doing), Though I had considered giving Crom to the Ranger/Cleric and using Rune Hammer as an o-hand for the fighter>cleric for its passive benefits. Or would it be better to give crom + runehammer to the cleric and the FoA to the ranger cleric?

I'm fairly sold on having the fighter>thief dual wield swords of some sort just for aesthetics. I am not so concerned about min maxing to the fullest. I just want to kick a decent amount of butt and look good while doing it The apr ohand seems to fit that bill just fine and I like the passive benefits of Angurvadal since it frees up a belt slot. But the Daystar is also a longsword too and pointing out its early acquire-ability and potential upgrade along with its overall usefulness has indeed made me consider it more.

So many options! So hard to pick >.<

Lord_Tansheron

With Crom Faeyr, keep in mind that a lot of its benefit comes from the STR bonus; both your clerics can cast Draw upon Holy Might, which will put their STR to 25 anyway and make Crom's bonus largely moot. It's still a nice weapon for the main hand, but not as amazing as it could otherwise be. You could consider using it on your Inquisitor, since they can't cast divine spells; though you probably want to use Carsomyr there, too...

FoA is nice on the F->C. It would be better on the F/T of course since that enables a +APR offhand, but it's not a huge difference. If you prefer swords on your F/T that's totally fine, and I can heartily recommend Daystar for sure For your C/R I'd recommend Club of Detonation; if you're playing with ItemUpgrade, you can use Pitchwife until then (also a club). For offhands for your clerics I can recommend Defender of Easthaven (for the F->C since it's also a flail), and the upgraded Mace of Disruption (gives Negative Plane Protection). You can also swap in shields as needed (especially Shield of Balduran...). Your Inquisitor will likely want to use Carsomyr, and can bridge the time until then with Joril's Dagger and Lilarcor.

That unfortunately leaves Crom Faeyr hanging a bit; you can still use it if you're too lazy to keep up DuHM or feel yourself dispelled too often. If you can make use of both the belt *and* the gloves, though, I'd strongly consider using the components separately.

[Deleted User]

Lord_Tansheron said:

Upgraded Daystar is a very good weapon, and quite high on the rankings (#4); the vast majority of enemies are evil, and against undead, well... Fulcrum is only good for characters that can't achieve grandmastery, for all others use Pitchwife instead, it's pretty amazing and available very early. If anything deserves to be called cheese, it's that club...

Pitchwife is a great main hand weapon, but Fulcrum has the bleeding alignment based damage bonuses, which can make it a potent off-hand. You're right though in that it is most impressive in the hands of characters who can't normally reach grandmastery (especially multiclass Fighters, who can use it to close the APR gap with their dual-classed brethren).