Shoal the Nereid - Bug

Silence

@dee

First off, thank you for letting me participate in the beta. For the most part, this version of the game is fantastic and highly stable on my system (specs below):

* Operating System: Windows 8 64-bit (6.2, build 9200)
* CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3630QM CPU @ 2.40GHz (8 CPUs) 2.4GHz
* GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M

However, I run into a problem when I interact with Shoal the Nereid.

Normally, I let Shoal give one of companions the kiss of death. The companion dies as a result and Shoal attacks. After taking a few points of damage, Shoal initiates a dialogue. I tell her to 'restore my fallen, else I shall continue...' In previous versions of the game, she then resurrects the slain character.

However, in the beta, the game crashes and I receive the following error message (see image):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10991020@N04/10064387065/

Ygramul

Please change Shoal, she is just bad design:

If she must kill someone, let it not be charname OR if she kisses charname let it bring him to only near-death.

Current behavior is as bad as "you are eaten by a grue" -- especially for no-reload games.

Basillicum

@Ygramul - I agree. From a roleplaying perspective she's a nice trap, but then again the player should be able to avoid the kiss somehow, which you're not when you've first initiated dialogue with Shoal.

SionIV

Ygramul said:

Please change Shoal, she is just bad design:

If she must kill someone, let it not be charname OR if she kisses charname let it bring him to only near-death.

Current behavior is as bad as "you are eaten by a grue" -- especially for no-reload games.

The best part is that you can't do her quest on a solo run. But i really don't mind when i play No-reload because there has to be some quests that you start wondering if it's worth it. And Shaol is one of those quests.

Ygramul

Still, bad design, I think.

SionIV

Ygramul said:

Still, bad design, I think.

What one person might find as bad design, another might cherish.

kamuizin

SionIV said:

Ygramul said:

Please change Shoal, she is just bad design:

If she must kill someone, let it not be charname OR if she kisses charname let it bring him to only near-death.

Current behavior is as bad as "you are eaten by a grue" -- especially for no-reload games.

The best part is that you can't do her quest on a solo run. But i really don't mind when i play No-reload because there has to be some quests that you start wondering if it's worth it. And Shaol is one of those quests.

You can kill her from ranged attacks fast before she get nears, cos for some reason if you attack her she start a banter with you instead of simply attack, that i think is a bad design. No other enemy in the game force a close banter with you (must be on melee distance to make the banter) when you attack them, they normally attack back only.

SionIV

kamuizin said:

SionIV said:

Ygramul said:

Please change Shoal, she is just bad design:

If she must kill someone, let it not be charname OR if she kisses charname let it bring him to only near-death.

Current behavior is as bad as "you are eaten by a grue" -- especially for no-reload games.

The best part is that you can't do her quest on a solo run. But i really don't mind when i play No-reload because there has to be some quests that you start wondering if it's worth it. And Shaol is one of those quests.

You can kill her from ranged attacks fast before she get nears, cos for some reason if you attack her she start a banter with you instead of simply attack, that i think is a bad design. No other enemy in the game force a close banter with you (must be on melee distance to make the banter) when you attack them, they normally attack back only.

But then you don't get the helm, which happens to be just about the best helm in the game, even better than Helm of Balduran at some points.

Silence

This bug aside, I've always hated this quest. This quest is the only instance where you are immediately killed by a dialogue choice in the entire BG series. What frustrates me the most is that there isn't even a roleplaying way out of the conversation. All dialogue options lead to death.

elminster

SionIV said:

Ygramul said:

Still, bad design, I think.

What one person might find as bad design, another might cherish.

I hope for someone making a mod to add a dialogue option to get out of it (since Overhaul can't touch original content under their agreement). The quest was poorly designed and even if you happen to like the quest thats really not a reason to add additional options (you can after all choose whatever options you would have normally). Your only option in this encounter is to be kissed and your death is scripted (meaning defensive spells you have active or armor class have no bearing on the outcome).

lamaros

It's stupid design, but I don't think they'll be allowed to change it.

Flashburn

The OP's problem is also my problem. After letting a companion take the fall, the game gives me the same message as the OP's, but I can dismiss it and alt-tab back into the game just fine. The real problem occurs when Droth walks up to the party and tries to start dialogue. That's when it crashes.

I can send 2 dump reports if needed, @Dee.

Madhax

Opinions on the design aside, I just did this quest a few times with different characters talking to the nereid, and none crashed the game. Everything proceeded normally.

LadyRhian

Nereids in Pen and Paper drown men with their kiss- but you get a save vs. breath weapons at -2 to survive it. If you survive, you feel ecstasy (I assume they are going for a "Rapture of the Deep" thing here). They are elemental kin (water elemental kin). Shoal's Kiss could conceivably be survivable, if you roll well or luckily. (Which kind of amounts to the same thing!) I never liked the "If you talk to her with a male character, no matter what you do or say, he dies." thing.

And shall we discuss nymphs? Any man who sees a nymph dies from seeing how beautiful she/it is. But there is also a save for "looked away in time". And Sirines can touch someone to reduce their INT to 2. (Dispellable with Dispel Magic or by the touch of another Sirine.)

Basillicum

LadyRhian said:

I never liked the "If you talk to her with a male character, no matter what you do or say, he dies." thing.

Actually, you can talk to Shoal with a female character as well, and she will still kiss and kill.

Anyway, I also went through the quest on beta without fail.

LadyRhian

@Basilicum In Pen and Paper, they can only kill men that way. They also have a "Spit Poison" attack. And, also in Pen and Paper, male characters are incapable of harming a Nereid. Imagine if *that* was somehow incorporated into the game!

Basillicum

LadyRhian said:

@Basilicum In Pen and Paper, they can only kill men that way. They also have a "Spit Poison" attack. And, also in Pen and Paper, male characters are incapable of harming a Nereid. Imagine if *that* was somehow incorporated into the game!

'Twould be a massacre of poisonous seduction!

Avenger_teambg

We know this bug, is is going to be fixed in ticket #4796

Sed

I had the nasty crash bug as reported.. could complete it in my normal non-beta version and then continue in beta :-)

Schneidend

LadyRhian said:

@Basilicum In Pen and Paper, they can only kill men that way. They also have a "Spit Poison" attack. And, also in Pen and Paper, male characters are incapable of harming a Nereid. Imagine if *that* was somehow incorporated into the game!

That would actually be pretty rad. Annoying, true, but an interesting dynamic all the same.

kamuizin

These things about, dying for seeing a nymph to me sounds a bit like nosense. maybe they're official rules but then... the saving throw is to lock away? So no one can actually really look on them without dying? That's a bit insane for me and i'm grateful BG didn't implemented this.

mforww

Silence said:

This bug aside, I've always hated this quest. This quest is the only instance where you are immediately killed by a dialogue choice in the entire BG series. What frustrates me the most is that there isn't even a roleplaying way out of the conversation. All dialogue options lead to death.

This is actually false...

On my one and only playthrough of ToB (so like, 10 years ago) I played a Sorcerer and didn't powergame him (aka reload on level ups) so he had VERY few hitpoints. Like basically lower than anybody would ever expect.

At any rate, I can't remember exactly where, but there was a point at which a conversation occurs and you are AUTOMATICALLY poisoned, and if you don't have enough hitpoints, you die during the course of the conversation, period.

Took me forever to figure out how to actually get through that (the only solution I could find was actually casting regeneration before the conversation started. In retrospect, I probably could have polymorphed before starting the convo as well).

Silence

@mforww: The case you are describing doesn't actually prove my statement false. Because poison doesn't kill you immediately , it takes time and does so via accumulated damage. If you can resist poison-induced damage through regeneration or any other means, you will avoid death.

Shoal kills you instantly, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent your death after talking to her. The only way to avoid Shoal-induced death is 1) not to talk to her, or 2) attack her while she is not hostile.

It's actually great to see people's thoughts on this quest in general. Though I think the quest should be changed, I don't need it to be. The real issue here is the bug and I'm glad to know it's being fixed.

Ygramul

This is just bad writing on the part of the original designers to necessitate instant death.

This is not the Holy Book. Just fix it already. Fix it such that the main PC is never killed back to the game-over screen.