Saving Throws: Benefit for negative values?

lamaros

This is a really simple question, but I can't find the answer easily, so:

Is there any value in having saving throws below zero? How do the saving throws get rolled? IE: does it look at the saving throw and then add or subtract the spell penalty, then roll, or does it cap at 1 and 20 and then add or subtract from that value?

atcDave

Some saves have a penalty. So even with say a -3 save, if something has a -8 penalty to the roll, you end up needing a 5. Of course a roll of 1 always fails.
And I'm not entirely sure how it's all implemented in BG. I'm largely a PNP guy, where such things easily happen. In BG I think the application of penalties is fairly uncommon.

lamaros

Yeah, that's why I'm asking. No point getting to -5 in saves if the game just goes "nah, we'll only count it as 1, greater mailson means you're rolling as 5".

Jalily

Your roll adjusted by the bonus or penalty is compared to your actual saving throw value.

atcDave said:

Of course a roll of 1 always fails.

Not in BG.

TJ_Hooker

The simple answer is: yes, there is a benefit to having saving throws below zero.

karnor00

Jalily said:

atcDave said:

Of course a roll of 1 always fails.

Not in BG.

Not in PNP either.

zur312

the lower the better i think? it is like ac and thaco

ZanathKariashi

The 1 always fails is a PnP rule, but it's an optional one, part of the OPTIONAL Critical Hit/Critical Failure rule.

karnor00

Nope, according to the core rule books (PHB & DMG) the rule that 1 always misses (and 20 always hits) only relates to attack rolls. And it's not an optional rule. There is an optional rule for critical hits on 20 and critical fumbles on 1.

Also, according to the core rule books there's no such rule for saving throws (so you can still fail on a 20 or succeed on a 1).

Incidentally magical armor should give bonuses to saving throws where the armor could physically help prevent the affect in question. i.e. could help against fireballs, lightning bolts, etc but not against gas, poison or mental attacks.

lunar

In PnP, normal creatures fail a saving throw on a roll of 1,2 or 3. Lesser deities fail on 1,2. Intermediate deities fail on 1. Greater deities never fail a saving throw.

The benefit of negative saving throws is thus:A high level dwarf cleric has save vs poison at -4, with items and such. He suffers a particularly deadly poison that gives -6 to save. He rolls a natural 4, with -6 result is -2, and it is still greater than his save vs poison (-4) so he succeeds.

If he is attacked by a weaker poison that gives -2 penalty, and rolls a 3. His modified save is 1, you would think he would succeed, but since he has rolled a natural 3, he fails. Regular creatures fail a save on natural rolls of 1,2 or 3, regardless of modifiers or base saves.

This is not true in BG. Imagine you have a base save of -4, and is attacked by a spell that gives -4 to save. If you roll a 2, the game text will say:Charname-save vs spells:-2. (2-4=-2, it still succeeds!) If you enable save rolls it gives you the results of rolls after modifications, and ONLY if the save is succesful. If the save is botched it will say the result instead. Like:Charname-confused, Charname-death, etc.

karnor00

lunar said:

In PnP, normal creatures fail a saving throw on a roll of 1,2 or 3. Lesser deities fail on 1,2. Intermediate deities fail on 1. Greater deities never fail a saving throw.

Where is this coming from? It's certainly not in the 2ED Players Handbook or Dungeon Masters Guide.

lunar

karnor00 said:

lunar said:

In PnP, normal creatures fail a saving throw on a roll of 1,2 or 3. Lesser deities fail on 1,2. Intermediate deities fail on 1. Greater deities never fail a saving throw.

Where is this coming from? It's certainly not in the 2ED Players Handbook or Dungeon Masters Guide.

High level campaigns book.

''Chapter 7:

High-Level Characters
Chapter 1 explained that high-level characters are unusual and heroic. This chapter
includes rules for giving high-level characters abilities that allow them to function as epic
heroes that are truly different from lesser mortals. It also explains some limitations that
even epic heroes must face.
Saving Throws All characters have the ability to resist hostile magic by rolling saving
throws. This ability is quite potent at high levels. Chapter 1 discusses some of the
problems this can cause in the campaign. This section includes rules to help ease some of
those problems.
A Reminder: Every character group has a level beyond which saving throws cannot
be further improved. Priests reach this limit at level 19, rogues reach it at level 21,
warriors reach it at level 17, and wizards reach it at level 21. See Table 60 in the Player’sHandbook for details.

Automatic Saving Throw Failure

Barring some special circumstance that makes a saving throw unnecessary, such as a
successful magic resistance roll or immunity to a particular attack form, there is always a
chance that a character can fail a saving throw. All characters and most other creatures
fail their saving throws on rolls of 3 or less on 1d20, no matter how many bonuses they
receive to the roll from magical items, spells, ability scores, and the like.
Some beings have lower failure numbers: Lesser deities fail their saving throws on
rolls of 2 or less, intermediate deities fail on rolls of 1, and greater deities need not roll at
all—they never fail their saving throws.''

For example, Wulf, a 21st-level priest, has a saving throw number of 2 against paralyzation, poison, or death magic. Wulf still automatically fails his saving throw against these attacks if his actual die roll is a 1, 2, or 3. However, if he encounters a particularly virulent poison that imposes a –3 penalty to the saving throw, his saving throw succeeds if Wulf rolls a 5 or higher on his saving throw die. (The roll, 5, is higher than the automatic failure number, and still equals a 2 after the –3 modifier is applied.)

atcDave

Lunar I would point out that High Level Campaigns is not a core rule book. The core books actually never speak to the issue at all. But every game I've ever played used some version of an automatic failure/automatic success rule for saving throws. And it's for exactly the reason High Level Campaigns gives, it pretty much destroys game play if everyone is automatically making all their saves.

lunar

Yeah it is an optional book, but it is obvious game designers read it for inspiration when designing ToB. (High level abilities etc.)

ZanathKariashi

Skimmed over it loosely to pick out some ability names perhaps....

Pretty much none of the HLA even slightly resemble their actual versions. And as usual...for no reason.

And they obviously missed the section where the bard's spell table kept going up until lvl 28, up to 8th level spells. And the lack of 10th level slots.

Durenas

3rd edition had pretty much just come out when ToB was made, so they tailored the HLAs to imitate 3rd edition.