Enforced average hp rolls

Rasmus

Since the game is getting updated it makes sense to remove some of the flaws of 2nd edition d&d. One of these was random hit points. Just like random stats it is horrible because it makes people do "out of game" actions to improve their "in game experience". I don't really care if maximum hp or medium hp would be chosen, but one should be enforced when playing. Anything that makes you save-load (metagame) to improve your in-game experience is bad design.

FrozenDervish

There is no randomness to the hp rolls unless you are using mods. 1st ten levels is the classes max hp with every level after being your unmodified con stat. Multi classes will get 1/2 hp of their class every level instead of full.

Tanthalas

@FrozenDervish

I actually think that HP at level up can be random in higher difficulty settings.

FrozenDervish

Maybe, but I was pretty sure the random hp was a nwn thing.

Rasmus

If you play at the standard difficulty (one above what the game starts at for some reason) hp rolls are random up to level 10, then it progreses with 1,2 or 3 hps depending on class. (mage, thief and fighter respectively)

Wolfheart

Well, I for one think it should be a checkbox (as they did in IWD 2) where you can toggle max hp or not. HP's are so vital in the game, there's no reason to artificially gimp people. Especially if they play on higher difficulty levels... A mage who's been really really unlucky might only get 1 hp per level *shiver*! Or worse, a warrior (Assuming low con,,, with 18 con min per level would be,,, 5) could be getting 1 hp instead of 10 (15 with 18 con).

Ulfgar_Torunn

The temptation to reroll hitpoints on level up is a strong one; knowing that your characters are weakened by something you could have fixed is very displeasing. By eliminating the random factor (or giving the option to) players would get the hitpoints that game balance requires, without frequent reloads.

I advocate the 'average' hit points option because BG 1 was surely balanced around average HP values, and it saves time when hitpoints are rolled as 1s or 2s.

On the other hand, over the course of 7 or 8 levels these things tend to settle fairly close to the average amounts as this calculator demonstrates, lessening the need for this option.

Wolfheart

@Ulfgar_Torunn Problem with average's are that sure, on average it all works out but in the end we do have those who are either extra lucky and always get's the highest or those who are very unlucky and only gets 1's.

Rasmus

Ulfgar, the problem is just that people in general load until tehy get close to perfect rolls. If there were to stick with the "random" system, at least those rolls should be made at character creation so it was impossible to use the Save/load exploit to get higher hit points than intended.

As for D&D in general, I have had a character with an average of 1,5 hp for 8 levels, and I have had one incredibly unlikely 7,2 on each level (on a d8) for 20 levels! Nor was really adding much to the game, since the first was impossible to play and the latter was just steamrolling stuff.

lansounet

I use a mod (The Bigg Tweaks IIRC) that makes HP roll on lvl a 2 dices roll instead of 1 :

2d4 instead of 1d8 and so on~

Makes better averages hp rolls with 2 hp per level as minimum. I'd like an addition/option like that in EE

Grumpwagon

I wonder if it's possible to seed hp rolls upon character creation. You would choose what style of hp gains you want as you level and if you pick a random style of any sort, the game determines your hp gains for every level at the very beginning. So essentially, you're locked in to your choice of how you gain hp and if you don't like your roll after lvling, that's tough; no amount of reloading will do any good, you'll always get the same result.

The trick here would be figuring out how this interacts with changing difficulty mid game and how pregenerated characters using different hp generating styles would work in multiplayer games.

Razor

That 1d8 adds something to the game, the luck factor and the joy that a good roll provides. And you don't improve your "in-game experience" you just cheat yourself, why do you feel entitled to the best roll?

Wolfheart

@Grumpwagon At worst that would be another set of data to import as well as 2x40 values for humans or 120 values for tri multiclassed people. In other words, other than the added complexity, there's nothing stopping that aproach, other than maybe the pre-existing code.

@Razor If they have to balance the game around people getting low rolls, the game is to easy for those who always get high rolls. And if they have to balance the game to those who always get high rolls, its to hard for those who always get low rolls. If the HP level can be locked to either max or half then they have a fixed value they can balance around.

Bercon

I think normally you gain: hit points = hit dice + constitution bonus. Personally I don't like this random element (1D4 - 1D12) and would rather gain average of that on each level up. This would create more balanced characters and people would not save/load until they get "perfect" hit points.

I believe this is the only random element in the game when talking about character progression, and it just doesn't fit.

There is a mod to give you something like: always higher end of the dice or always maximum dice. The former still has randomness which I don't like and the latter creates unbalanced characters with insane amounts of health. I think the middle road would be the best here, always average amount of hit points.

Thoughts? Would this be easy to mod if it wont make it into the game?

drakerd

Yea I can agree with you as all I would do is save before I level. Then reload if I got a crappy roll. Average HP on party level would be fine by me. I'm not sure if they plan on tweaking things like this though. Perhaps something for BG3?

Corvino

If you turn difficulty down from Core to Normal just before levelling up you'll automatically get max HP for level. Then just turn the difficulty back up. This is a bit cheesy but no more so than reloading bad rolls.

Bercon

Yeah, but max hit points is not that well balanced. It would be far more reasonable to get the average hit points each level.

Tanthalas

There should just be an option where both the party and all creatures get max hit points.

Moomintroll

@Bercon The starting rolls are random and define some elements of progression, such as bonus spell slots for clerics, and the probability that a wizard will be able to learn a spell (and by extension the progression of his spellbook). Though I agree that such things would be better off optional with a tick box, flexible rulesets should widen the appeal of the game!

Space_hamster

IMO, it's part of the D&D experience to have random hit points, it is simulating dice throws after all. It makes the game more interesting. Regardless, playing the game on normal maxes the hit points.

drakerd

@Space_hamster Rolling dice is part of the D&D experience and it's part of what makes D&D great. However, in a video game where you can save and reload before your rolls it kind of trivializes those rolls. Now, you could just say "well don't do that" but that argument is like saying "Would you rather work for $10/hour or $20/hour." To me, if they wanted to keep this mechanic that randomized HP it should that once the roll takes place it makes that HP roll permanent even if you reload the game. That way if you reload to level up again, the roll is saved so you will take the previous roll no matter what. So for me I would rather see enforced die rolls or average of the rolls.

bill_zagoudis

true enough non would accept low rolls for his pc at least,this sort of randomness is just a bother to reload a couple of times and adds nothing to the game

O_Bruce

I never get anything agains randomized hit points. "Perfect" characters are highly unlikeable to me. Besides, random hit points means more randomization in the game, and that means more interesting gameplay.

If you guys want max hit points, then I guess that solution from IWD is good way. Just toggable option to max HP per level up would do the work.

Linkamus

a level 8 fighter with 18 con with the worst rolls possible has I think 40 HP. a level 8 fighter with the best rolls possible have 112 HP. That is way too much disparity. Way too much randomness. I agree with OP.

Nirmak

It's the game. I think it's just to reflect reality. Nobody is equal to its neighbor. If you want to cheat and re-roll the dice 1000000 times to get max HP, well... Do it... But it's playing to accept this rule and accept the challenge it offers. It's like the characteristics dice roll. You can do it 1000000 times, but it's more interesting to roll it once (or two). You get a real character with some good and some bad things, not a god.

bigdogchris

When BG first came out I would keep rerolling character stats or save/reload on level ups to get max HP. I don't do that anymore though with these games. I take what the game gives me and I move on. It's more fun that way.

Wolfheart

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2187/enforced-average-hp-rolls
@Tanthalas Merge maybe?

Oh well, Another of these threads ^^* I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. To quote myself:

"If they have to balance the game around people getting low rolls, the game is to easy for those who always get high rolls. And if they have to balance the game to those who always get high rolls, its to hard for those who always get low rolls. If the HP level can be locked to either max or half then they have a fixed value they can balance around. "

Samiel

drakerd said:

@Space_hamster Rolling dice is part of the D&D experience and it's part of what makes D&D great. However, in a video game where you can save and reload before your rolls it kind of trivializes those rolls. Now, you could just say "well don't do that" but that argument is like saying "Would you rather work for $10/hour or $20/hour." To me, if they wanted to keep this mechanic that randomized HP it should that once the roll takes place it makes that HP roll permanent even if you reload the game. That way if you reload to level up again, the roll is saved so you will take the previous roll no matter what. So for me I would rather see enforced die rolls or average of the rolls.

Whilst I do for the most part agree with you, I don't see the need to "enforce" anything. If people want to play with the rolls the fates give them. Making people who don't want to will just cause frustrations. Nothing is really gained.

Cremo

Best option on HP in d&d imho is to simply give the player the choice to either have:
- original rolls like in ad&d
- mitigated rolls ala NWN (something like, for a barbarian 6+1d6)
- full hp

with chance for the player to specify different rules for characters/NPCs and other mobs

To me, however, most important thing for hp is the externalization of the CON bonus to hp per level (you can alter classes so they don't receive hp bonus due to class, but the con bonus to level up is hardcoded, which prevents mods that, for example, will instead prefer to have HP based only on constitution rather than level).

Kukaracha

I disagree with the change. Game has been balanced around this randomness, and it's simply more fun to play.

Tanthalas

Thanks @Wolfheart

Merged the similar threads.