Assassin or shadowdancer?
Infiltrator
Member Posts: 121
Hey guys. I just got bgee. I've tried bg a long time ago but never got to beat it. I did so with bg2 and had a blast with the assassin, I just loved stabbing people to chunks.
Now, I wanted to know how good does the shadow dancer come in terms of gameplay? In bg2, I could only later do multiple stabs per target by abusing the boots of speed or rings/potions. Is this class trade off worth the lower stab multiplier? Does the shadowdancer stealth mechanically work differently than chugging an invis potion? What about his progression into bg2ee? Do we get the option to go on with the same class as it wasn't available in the original?
Ultimately, I want to know from those that loved the assassin and tried the shadowdancer their impressions!
Now, I wanted to know how good does the shadow dancer come in terms of gameplay? In bg2, I could only later do multiple stabs per target by abusing the boots of speed or rings/potions. Is this class trade off worth the lower stab multiplier? Does the shadowdancer stealth mechanically work differently than chugging an invis potion? What about his progression into bg2ee? Do we get the option to go on with the same class as it wasn't available in the original?
Ultimately, I want to know from those that loved the assassin and tried the shadowdancer their impressions!
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Comments
I would say shadow dancer if you plan to be your party's only thief, but if you will have more than that I would say assassin with most of his points in stealth.
shadowdancer can dual wield easily while backstabing while other can not without staff of magi or potions or other goodies or improved invis
Also, in BG2 one of the best uses of backstab is to one-shot mages, who tend to be the more formiddable enemies you come across. With a x3 multiplier I'd imagine that the Shadowdancer will not be able to do this very well.
@meagloth - Shadowdancer also gets 15 thieving points per level so it's no more a party Thief than the Assassin is.
- zur312 : What makes you say he's the best stabber, and why do you think he can DW better than the others?
- FrozenCells : yeah, I loved scouting ahead with my assassin and just taking a mage out of the equation. But can't a shadowdancer do so in like, 2 attacks? And then keep being relevant through the fight unlike the assassin, who relies on invis rings and potions, or being forced to run behind a corner every time?
The benefit of SD is mostly defensive: +1 to saves, Shadowstep to get you out of a rough situation, and hide in plain sight to neutralise mage spells targeted at you. If you want a backstabber with more opportunities to backstab (and backstab properly!) you want a multiclass M/T, F/M/T or C/T. There are all good backstabbers for various reasons.
As a bonus, the Assassin isnt irrelevant outside of backstabs. Scout, go back, set a trap, backstab, draw enemies to trap, get some mage crowd control spells going on and finish off with poisoned darts or whatever you wish. Staple tactic and not cheesy unless you make it so.
That all makes sense and I guess it raises the possibility that the Shadowdancer will be useless past a certain point (like level 9) where his 3x multiplier stops growing as well as his utility, unless I'm making a mistake.
To me it would make sense that the SD receives normal thief multipliers, you're already giving up the hit points, the +1 dam/thac0, the extra multipliers and poison weapon from your offensive arsenal and trading them for a built-in staff of the magi, which can be made up for with potions and rings of invisibility.
But well, that completely changes the class, so that won't happen
They made the shadow dancer, so they can do whatever the hell they want to it, remove it, completely make $%#^ up for it, doesn't matter, it's theirs to do what they wish with. They just can't mess around too much with previously existing kits (the ones from before BG:EE).
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I'm all for the assassin. While I feel they'd be much better as a dedicated poison specialist, like the PnP version, instead of BS/Poison, they're still a solid choice.
And you have 2 schools of thought you can engage in.
1. Largely forget that backstab exists for most of BG1 and focus on traps/locks/set trap or DI. Stick with bows, throwing knives or darts and use your poison when there's tough fights (preferably with darts to milk all the possible damage out of it). Their +1 hit/damage is almost specialization and gives them a little extra umph. Once you get boots of stealth/Shadow armor, you'll have a decent stealth for attempting to hide, when shadowed, and can backstab if you wish. Or use a ring of invis or potions. Once you get to BG2 and get DI or set traps fleshed out (which ever you didn't get before), you can start sparing points for MS.
2. Focus on stealth/set traps in BG1, due to all the thieves coming out of the wood work, while they handle locks/traps/DI. And once you can hide reliably without the boots of stealth/Shadow Armor, start branching out to take over utility in mid BG2, if you don't intend to use Jan.
In late game the assassin's poison is devastatingly strong and includes a slow effect after 15, if they fail the save. Giving them a potent ace in situations where setting traps or backstabbing isn't a viable option.
staff of magi = 2handed weapon
i agree with frozen
assasin is great fighting thief with poison and sometimes backstab
but shadowdancer is just great backstaber
Shadow Dancer: All Defense; moderate utility; minimal offense
Shadow dancer dual's really well with anything you want to keep safe (e.g. mage; archer, etc.).
I actually think it's a little OP - especially if you switch to a non stealth action before attacking (e.g. find traps/illusions) which starts the countdown timer for stealth early allowing you to restealth after attack.
It's a neat idea and I love shadow step! (I play no reload)
But I think it's OP for a powergamer - it's just so easy to abuse that I actually avoid the class.
Of course - it's strongest benefit comes when working alone - it can slowly whittle others down; rather than add a quick punch to a group assault.
Assassins have their own weakness in that it takes forever to get their thief skills to high enough levels to matter, and really besides your stealth skills you're going to probably take maybe one more skill. Of course this means you can just bring Jan/Imoen in your party so they can cover the other important stuff and still do other stuff while casting spells so you don't carry 2 full thieves in your party.
So yeah in terms of pure thieves, go assassin, unless you're totally new to the whole backstab game, then just go shadow dancer.
Also should note that Shadow Dancer would probably be a decent dual class option for a Thief/Mage, maybe even a Thief/Cleric, but that's all your call.
o SHADOW FORM: This ability temporarily transposes some of the
Shadowdancer’s tissue with shadow-material, making the subject partially
incorporeal. For the next 5 rounds, all physical attacks directed against the
Shadowdancer deal only 50% of their normal damage. During this time the
Shadowdancer is also under the effects of Improved Invisibility and cannot be
directly targeted by spells.
o SHADOW MAZE: This ability opens a temporary gateway to a small pocket
within the Plane of Shadow. All enemies within 10 feet of the Shadowdancer must
make a saving throw vs. spells at a -4 penalty or become trapped inside a shadowy
labyrinth, as per the Maze spell.
o SHADOW TWIN: This ability creates an almost exact duplicate of the
Shadowdancer for 2 turns. The duplicate is created at 60% of the level at which
the Shadowdancer is currently on. It has all the abilities that the Shadowdancer
would have at that level. It also has 60% of the hit points of the Shadowdancer.
The duplicate is fully under the control of the Shadowdancer.
Plus the usual non-trap thief HLA's (use any item, etc)
Well what can I say about this class... Shadowdancer.
I'm currently in Ch 4 BG2EE with my elven shadowdancer girl with a good alignet party. Played through Bg1EE. Shadowdancer is the most useless thief class in the game. The only good option for this class - is going with dual class -> MAGE. But I'm an elf and can't dual. I simple wanted to check the pure shadowdancer class (because I thought this class is good and interesting to play). Well it's really very uncomfortable to play with this class as a THIEF. My role in the party is to pick locks, find traps and shoot some arrows (there's no need for me to go melee) and thats all. First of all you can't set traps at all. Secondly my BS ability is absolutely useless. Even Valygar is better. So there is absolutely NO use for hide in shadows or use HiD only for scouting (Rasaad is better with this role).
In BG1EE there is no need in his hide in plain sight ability - for what purpose you would like to hide in shadows in a battle if you have a x1 BS multiplier for example? Flee from the battlefield? Also his ability shadowstep is only useable only to avoid some tough situations. Really???
20 skill points per level - is a joke. You're ending BG1 only with 100's in lock pick and find traps and some points in other abilities. Less if you're a human (I have 20 DEX).
Actually you don't need the hide in plain sight ability at all, because of:
1. You can't backstab at all.
2. To the time when you'll have 100 in HiD and MS there will be a lot A LOT OF items with invisible abilities, your mage with the invisible spells and scrolls and a LOT OF potions. Even at the end of BG1EE I use only potions and the ring of invisibility or casting Neera invisibility spell on me. But keep in mind that you can't backstab.
The only advantage is the slipperly mind bonus +1 saving throws. LMAO.
Honestly I though it's a very good class, before I've tested it for myself in the game. It's completely useless and I don't recommend to pick this class or go dual to a mage (swashbuckler FTW). You can't even compare this class with the assassin class. Compared to the shadowdancer the assassin is a God.