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The Black Pits 2: Gladiators of Thay

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  • RedGuardRedGuard Member Posts: 672
    Only the recruitable kind. :P

    Wolk
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279

    Some Hints:

    - You can hire gladiators to aid your party.
    - There is now an announcer for battles, he will call out impressive hits and gruesome deaths.
    - Part of it takes place within the capital of Cormyr.

    So excited about an anouncer! Will we also have a crowd cheering or booing us? I want to have people cheer me as i defeat those dragons (we have dragons right?) and scream in fear as i spray dragon blood in the crowd!
    Gladiators? Do they stay in the party until the end (or death, probably death) or just for one battle? Can you hire a gibberling?
    Party? Will it be the real CHARNAME party with the game's NPCs or is it another awesome full custom party?
    Cormyr or Thay? Or other places also? Please not the underdark again, we go there in almost every Forgotten Realms game, i'm almost getting bored of the Underdark... almost!
    Level 8-40? How long exactly is that mini game? By leveling once each fight it srtil makes 32 fights.
    Level 40 uh? I hope we will have to fight something stronger than a puny demi-lich, like an army of vampirised demi-lich hybrid of a beholder and a mind flayer ridding chromatic dracolich. Or a werebear, just one.

  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279

    hope u leik demi liches

    Demi lichES??

    YAY! Armies of solitary overpowered floating skulls!

  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    @Wolk I think you will have to wait and find out. The hints are meant to give us something to have dreams and nightmare over for 3 weeks :)

    Thanks for the new info Phillip!

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 863
    Baeloth is expected to be part of Black Pits 2, right? I would rather have him as a possible team member who we can have banters with, rather than have him be the organizer of the Pits. After all, it is suited for levels 8-40, it's beyond him to manage such.

  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    @CoryNewb I guess you're right, but wouldn't a vampire/demilich/beholder/mind flayer riding a dragon be cool?

  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    Wolk said:

    @CoryNewb I guess you're right, but wouldn't a vampire/demilich/beholder/mind flayer riding a dragon be cool?

    I'm sure they will not let us down if we are talking level 40.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited October 2013
    Just going to throw it out there: Demilich riding on a Dracolich. Because you really p***ed off the DM.

    Wolk
  • Chaotic_GoodChaotic_Good Member Posts: 255
    edited October 2013
    Just a guess but I bet the black pits is going to be the set up for bg3 I can't wait.

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 863
    While I am excited about Black Pits 2, I sincerely hope it'll be lore-friendly. I mean these are epic levels we're talking about. Surely there can't be 20 Elminsters and Irenicus gathered in 1 place.

    Wolk
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Illustair It's more important to be fun to play than lore friendly for sure.

    IllustairEudaemonium
  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Illustair said:

    While I am excited about Black Pits 2, I sincerely hope it'll be lore-friendly. I mean these are epic levels we're talking about. Surely there can't be 20 Elminsters and Irenicus gathered in 1 place.

    I'm pretty sure if you did a survey of the Realms, you could easily find dozens of Elminster/Irenicus level spellcasters. Getting them in one place might be tricky, but since the subtitle is "Gladiators of Thay," I'm assuming they have the upper ranks of the Red Wizards to draw on for a start.

  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    Personally, I think it's a mistake separating the Black Pits from the rest of the gameworld.

    They should've just added in a tiny little area somewhere that could've been accessible during gameplay. It's awesome that they're adding more content, but this content should've been a part of the game, not a standalone module. IMO, making it standalone fractures gameplay.

    Beamdog, if you're reading this, please, *please*, PLEASE make the Pits accessible from the story campaign itself! So many of us enjoy continuity and would love to take a stab at the Pits battles in between questing and journey across the world map.

    You can still have the Pits as a standalone module, accessible from the main menu, but there's nothing stopping you from incorporating it into the story as well. Just add some tiny little area somewhere with some crazy hermit or something, and voila, the player and his/her party is transported to the Pits!

    Just my 0.02 cents. Will be getting the game either way! :)

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456

    Personally, I think it's a mistake separating the Black Pits from the rest of the gameworld.

    They should've just added in a tiny little area somewhere that could've been accessible during gameplay. It's awesome that they're adding more content, but this content should've been a part of the game, not a standalone module. IMO, making it standalone fractures gameplay.

    Beamdog, if you're reading this, please, *please*, PLEASE make the Pits accessible from the story campaign itself! So many of us enjoy continuity and would love to take a stab at the Pits battles in between questing and journey across the world map.

    You can still have the Pits as a standalone module, accessible from the main menu, but there's nothing stopping you from incorporating it into the story as well. Just add some tiny little area somewhere with some crazy hermit or something, and voila, the player and his/her party is transported to the Pits!

    Just my 0.02 cents. Will be getting the game either way! :)

    I think it would be a mistake if it was accessible only from the main game. I wouldn't mind if it was accessible both from the main as well as separately, though.

    jackjack
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    Phillip said "part of it takes place in Cormyr" which leads me to believe it will be a little less cramped than bg1 black pits. Interesting hint. I like the idea of a traveling gladiator show.

    JuliusBorisov
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    edited October 2013
    @TvrtkoSvrdlar its a lock that the black pits will not take place in the game of bg2. It is its own seperate mini game for the canon party (overhuals default party) or parties we create in it.

    There are many reasons to guarantee it, but the sole fact that you will level up from level 8-40 in just the black pits means that it would unbalance the regular game (not to mention the gold/loot). I imagine the black pits is done and the team is 100% focused on squishing bugs with multiplayer and other changes right now.

    JuliusBorisov
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    CoryNewb said:

    @TvrtkoSvrdlar its a lock that the black pits will not take place in the game of bg2. It is its own seperate mini game for the canon party (overhuals default party) or parties we create in it.

    There are many reasons to guarantee it, but the sole fact that you will level up from level 8-40 in just the black pits means that it would unbalance the regular game (not to mention the gold/loot). I imagine the black pits is done and the team is 100% focused on squishing bugs with multiplayer and other changes right now.

    I'm a fan of choice. That's why we have difficulty sliders. Why not just plop a single NPC down in the Adventure Mart, and give him some dialogue that allows him to transport the party to the Pits? It's literally like 60 seconds of work. Make the Pits available as its own unique minigame, but let players access it from the main story as well. What's the harm? Those who don't want to, won't. No harm done. Those like myself who do (and there are many of us) are basically forced to roll another part to play through content that should've been a part of the game.

    I know that gold/loot/XP in the Pits is probably uber-high, but that doesn't matter if the Pits aren't enforced on the player. If it's a choice to go there and do the fights, then who cares if it unbalances the game? As already stated, those who don't want to mess up their playthrough will skip the Pits content and play it on the side. As it stands right now, it's like having a DLC that forces you to scrap your main playthrough and go on some tangential romp on the side. Whose idea was this anyway? Because it's not a very good one.

    Again, I'm a fan of choice. Let the people choose - don't enforce your own rules, Beamdog.

    Don't get me wrong, I love you guys, as you've rekindled the BG dream for many of us (and I'll financially support Beamdog no matter what) but I strongly disagree with this kind of thinking. It's what drove a lot of people away from Blizzard games. The moment Blizz started limiting choice and enforcing their own arbitrary rules on what 'fun' should be is the moment they turned away a lot of people.

    "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY! PLAY THE GAME THE WAY *I* WANT YOU TO!"

    That's not cool. If you're making content, then include it in the storyline. Why are we *forced* to roll a new party? I wanna romp through the Pits with Viccy and Keldorn and Korgan at my side! And it's not like such a modification would require an overhaul of the entire engine or something.

    Choice is always good - the more, the better. Imagine if the original BG2 devs artificially enforced a 6-person party. How much would that have sucked, huh? But they didn't, they gave us *choice*. We can play solo, or we can play with a fully party. Just like IWD2 had its 'Heart of Fury' mode which offered replay value to those who wanted a challenge. Choice. That's what it's all about.

    Anyway, enough ranting...

    Beamdog? Guys, plz plz plz let us access the Pits from the main storyline.

    I love you either way, and I'll be getting BG2 no matter what, but being able to carry a party all the way from Chateau Irenicus, throughout Amn, then Watcher's Keep, the Black Pits, and finally ToB would be the most epic thing ever!

  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    @FinneousPJ
    That's what I'm suggesting, yes; make it accessible either way.

    Some people will play it as seperate content with a new party from the main menu.

    Others, like myself, will go through the Pits as a part of their standard story playthrough.

    It's win-win. There's literally no reason to restrict either of these options.

    I'm so psyched for BG2EE and the new Pits. C'mon Beamdog, throw us a bone! :P

  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    @TvrtkoSvrdlar

    I agree with you it would be fun to be go in the Black Pits within the full adventure, but it would terebly unbalance both game and ruin the game experience. Both games are suposed to be a challenge going from level 8-40, if you mix them, you will get way too much XP, so if you do the Black Pits first, you will have too much XP and probably won't enjoy the original saga as much because you will be overpowered, the same goes if you do the original saga first. The way to fix that would be to lower the XP rewards of the Black Pits so don't don't level up once every fight, so you could do a battle, adventure a bit and level up, do another fight, adventure a bit etc. but doing so will probably cripple the game experience because you have to go away from the Black Pits without finishing the next fight, and stop adventuring for a while.

  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    edited October 2013
    Illustair said:

    While I am excited about Black Pits 2, I sincerely hope it'll be lore-friendly. I mean these are epic levels we're talking about. Surely there can't be 20 Elminsters and Irenicus gathered in 1 place.

    There are many different ways to challenge high-level players. I predict some endurance encounters, where you have to fight waves of enemies without resting. Individually they would pose no threat, even a single wave might not pose much, but 5 waves of them might tax your party's resources. Incidentally, slaying droves of enemies sometimes makes for a really fun game too. ^_^

    Illustair
  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    @TvrtkoSvrdlar I wouldn't mind if one had the option in BG2EE of stumbling upon the new Pits and spectating, but it would really clash with the story of BG2EE. BG2 is already stretched by allowing to player to wander about doing sidequest upon sidequest when theoretically they should be rushing to rescue their friend/retrieve their soul/stop someone from ascending to godhood, etc. Having Gorion's Ward take a few years off to fight in gladiatorial pits would just break the story entirely.

    Choice is not always good. You might argue that letting the player take *more* than six party members would be good, but it would create problems both in balancing and in the sheer logistics of moving an army of NPCs through every map. You might like the idea of being able to make to choice to have your character say "Screw you Irenicus, I don't care about Imoen and I'm not playing your game," but that would have required the developers to either create an entire other game to appease you, or somehow invalidate your choice and make it meaningless.

    nano
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    edited October 2013
    @Wolk
    As you already mentioned, just reduce the XP by N%. It's not that hard, really.

    @LordRumfish
    Endurance fights can be really fun. Gauntlet-type events make you feel epic. It's just you and your 5 (or however many you're taking along) comrades, against a tide of enemies! Come to think of it, the escape from Moria in the LotR movie could've been way more epic had Gandalf forced the party to actually fight the goblins! :D

    @Kaigen
    I understand your points, but I disagree. The PC takes a boat to an island, travels through a sahuagin city, trawls through the Underdark, visits a drow city, enters and exits Walker's Keep at will, etc. And that's all in the original storyline. I mean, if we can suspend disbelief at all that, then we can sure as heck allow the party to spend a couple of in-game weeks fighting in some gladiator pits.


    The main point here is that it should be a choice. If you don't want it wrecking your game for roleplaying reasons (and I can respect that), then you obviously won't do it. But that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. Who knows, maybe you'll *want* to hit the Pits with the OC NPCs on your next playthrough.

    I figure that as long as it doesn't force the player, and it's not blatantly obvious that the choice is there (ie. no Baeloth holding up a huge wooden sign saying "Come hither to the blackest Pits of doom!"), then it should be ok. Ignore the choice if it bothers you, and continue on your merry way. But to some of us, not having the Pits as a part of the story is, well, gutting the game.

    I honestly hope Beamdog will include some way for us to access the Pits from inside the story. A hidden NPC or a magical trap or a special scroll... whatever. Slash the XP down to 20% to preserve balance, and there you have it, instant satisfaction. I'd be all in favor of even hiding the 'entrance' (whatever form it may take), so as to not confuse or waylay people who are playing the game for the first time.

    Whatever works! :)

    EDIT:
    Oh, and I forgot to add one thing - entering the Pits while playing through the storyline could lock the party inside until they finish all the fights. This would be even easier to include than modifying the Pits to allow the party to come and go at will. Basically, the way I see it, the Pits should be like another Watcher's Keep; full of cool items, interesting fights, a lot of gold and XP (balanced amounts, of course), but unlike WK, the Pits wouldn't let you leave until you beat all the fights. Once you do, you're teleported back to whatever spot you first entered from, and that's it, you continue on your way to save Imoen or get Irenicus or whatever...

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    @TvrtkoSvrdlar I just don't understand why you see access from within the main game as so critical. It's a different adventure, taking place in a completely different geographic region, featuring completely different characters. This isn't an expansion pack we're talking about, it's a separate module played with the same engine. And it's a chance for the devs to tell their own story instead of inserting their characters into someone else's story.

    nanoWolk
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    edited October 2013
    @Kaigen

    Dunno, I just like long and epic games. I know the devs are on a shoestring budged, but that kind of only compounds my point - if you're making content, you make it to add to the game. Splintering it into pieces isn't really effective. If they were some huge studio like Bio or Blizz then they could play around with unique content that doesn't really add to the story, but they're not, which is why I feel all their efforts should go towards building and enhancing already existing gameplay (both through bug patching and engine enhancements, and additional content).

    Enforcing a seperate module that has nothing to do with the original game is silly. The thing is, I wouldn't care if I didn't love BG2 and the Black Pits from BG1EE, but I do. The devs managed to craft a sweet little side-adventure, and that's what it should have been - an adventure on the side, not a whole new module that forces you to dump your primary party and make a new one just so you can enjoy the new content.

    I dislike that.

    EDIT:
    To clarify, what bothers me most about it is the fact that we, as consumers, are locked out of it unless we obey some unnecessary and restrictive rule (in this particular case, the restriction being having to create a whole new party). Content should be given to the player to consume in any way they wish, with no strings or rules attached. I know I'm maybe coming off as entitled, as the devs are already giving us a boatload of new content in BG2EE...

    But still, the fact remains that you can't access the Pits when and where you want. It's locked unless you want to make a new party and play a side adventure which has no connection to the main story. And this shouldn't happen, new content shouldn't have stipulations attached to it, no matter how minor or major said content is. It's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit before putting it on some pedestal and forcing the rabbit to climb a bunch of stairs to reach it.

    It's unnecessary, and it's restrictive.

    It shouldn't happen.

  • ZarakinthishZarakinthish Member Posts: 214
    There is an aspect that I've noticed hasn't been discussed yet: timeline. As I understand it, Black Pits takes place just before and/or during the very beginning of the first game. If Baeloth is in charge again, it may have taken him quite some time to build up enough power/money/influence to run such a show again, and thus take part after the saga.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567

    EDIT:
    To clarify, what bothers me most about it is the fact that we, as consumers, are locked out of it unless we obey some unnecessary and restrictive rule (in this particular case, the restriction being having to create a whole new party). Content should be given to the player to consume in any way they wish, with no strings or rules attached. I know I'm maybe coming off as entitled, as the devs are already giving us a boatload of new content in BG2EE...

    But still, the fact remains that you can't access the Pits when and where you want. It's locked unless you want to make a new party and play a side adventure which has no connection to the main story. And this shouldn't happen, new content shouldn't have stipulations attached to it, no matter how minor or major said content is. It's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit before putting it on some pedestal and forcing the rabbit to climb a bunch of stairs to reach it.

    It's unnecessary, and it's restrictive.

    It shouldn't happen.

    See, this is where you lose me. I can understand that you want more content for the main game, and that you'd rather they focused the attention they did on creating The Black Pits on adding content to the main game instead (though you're already getting new adventures in the form of new NPC quests). What I don't understand is all this rhetoric about being "locked out," or "restricted." It's not as though they're making you jump through a bunch of hoops to play The Black Pits; you can access it "when and where you want," you just can't access it how you want. Which seems to be "with my Bhaalspawn and a bunch of Bioware NPCs." Let me tell you, if having to go to the main menu, select "New Game," and roll up a new character (or, heaven forfend, use the pre-generated ones) qualifies as "restrictive" then the base game has been "restrictive" for years.

    scriver
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    I am looking forward to The Black Pits 2, but this sentiment that it absolutely must connect to the story of BG2 directly doesn't seem necessary to me. I enjoy testing out character ideas in the pits, and a lot of them that I will never get around to beating the main story with I might just beat The Black Pits with. I admit it would be fun to bring along the Bioware NPCs, but I don't have a problem with it being a separate game. I like that they're compatible enough to import/export, so in a "What-If" world I can test my Bhaalspawn against the pits and see if they emerge victorious.

    The Black Pits is a different game with different needs. If you brought in the giant mecha from Gundam Wing to the world of Escaflowne, the dragonheart mechs would be totally outclassed and outmatched. Those worlds tell different stories on different power curves and it doesn't make sense to push them together. Anyway, for what it's worth I'm sure someday we will have the option to import an entire BG party into Black Pit fights, either officially or due to the enterprising ambition of modders.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I think you can already import an entire party from a save game..?

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