APR

pixie359

So, I should definitely know this, but I'm wondering how APR is worked out for dual weilders.

Fighter has say 2 attacks, +1 for extra hand, +1 for speed weapon, +.5 for 2 pips in main hand, +.5 for 5 pips in main hand. That's 5 attacks, the recognised maximum without spells.

Do they not get bonuses for pips for off-hand weapons? Why not? I feel that getting GM in short swords should improve my off hand rate too.

Am I right that all but one attacks comes from the main hand, regardless of where the extra attack comes from? Why?

What happens if you dual wield speed weapons? 6 apr?

Dee

You only ever get one attack with your off-hand weapon. All other attacks are with the main-hand weapon. If you're wielding an off-hand weapon that grants bonus attacks, those attacks are made by the main-hand weapon.

[Deleted User]

You are correct that all but one attack comes from the main hand, unless you are under the effects of Improved Haste, in which case you get two off-hand attacks. In BG2 vanilla, APR was capped at 5, so dual-wielding speed weapons with grand mastery would still only get you 5 attacks.

As far as the "why?" goes I can only speculate. It might have been an attempt to balance dual-wielding by keeping the number of attacks under control, or it might have just been easier to code that way.

pixie359

thanks @Dee, but you missed the second half of that question - why?

Dee

It has to do with the way item abilities work. They don't grant their abilities to the item; they grant them to the wielder. An item that grants "+1 APR" grants it to the character, and when a character's APR increases, the extra APR gets added to the main hand.

pixie359

Thanks again, but I'm still not sure you've answered why extra attacks only go to the main hand. Technical limitation, or dev decision?

Dee

Technical limitation.

Shin

It's unclear whether the original developers wanted to but couldn't, or could but preferred it the way it is now. It's by all accounts a hardcoded state at present though, and seemingly can't be easily altered.

pixie359

Aha, that makes sense. Shame though, it doesn't really feel right.

While you're here Dee, any thoughts on why the capped apr at 5 and why off hand specialisation doesn't count whichever hand it affects? Or am I wrong and it does count, but is irrelevant because of the cap?

karnor00

Doesn't improved haste give 2 offhand attacks?

If I recall correctly, improved haste works by halving the round speed from 6 seconds to 3 seconds (i.e. in 6 seconds you get 2 rounds of attacks = twice as many attacks). But this does mean getting 2 offhand attacks in those 6 seconds.

I've no idea how improved haste stacks/compares with whirlwind attack. Presumably still only 10 attacks/round? But how many offhand attacks?

ZanathKariashi

Because they felt like capping it at 5. In PnP there is no hard cap, though aside from warriors, without magical means no one really gets more then 2 or 3 attacks (depending on weapon).

A GM fighter with darts has 7 base attacks in PnP (6 for throwing knives), since darts and throwing daggers are supposed to get a full extra attack for each 1/2 attack of bonus apr from warrior levels or specialization.


Because the rules just simply say that you can never have more then 1 off-hand attack, except through magical means. I assume it's related to your off-hand being weaker and less able to fully take advantage of your specialization due to trying to attack more then once being too risky to imbalance you..or some such.


Under WWA, 1 attack is from the Off-hand (it's usually a good idea to unequip your off-hand when using WWA unless both weapons have the same damage). Currently only improved haste allows for 2 off-hand attacks in a normal round due to it's mechanic.

Bercon

Improved Haste and Whirldwind attacks shorten your rounds. So you are still capped at 5 attacks (4+1), but do them twice in one round (4+1+4+1). I don't think they stack, so you don't get any benefit from having both.