Improve Barbarians
LordRumfish
Member Posts: 937
I haven't seen a thread for this yet; the reason, of course, is because so few people play barbarians, and the reason for THAT is because barbarian is a bad class. If you could dual-class out of it, I'd be a barbarian/mage or a barbarian/thief in a heartbeat, even though you're still probably not as effective as a berserker would be.
Give barbarians a shot in the arm, Beamdog. Maybe a little bonus or two during early levels, and then something to keep you coming back all the way into the epic reaches of ToB. Offer scaling bonuses that make them look more appealing (extend the damage reduction table perhaps, even make it more frequent). Offer barbarian kits, let them dual-class... please, give us some reason aside from flavor to pick barbarian.
EDIT: In this thread http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22440/kit-concepts-you-would-like-to-see/p1 @Schneidend gets credit for coming up with a cold-themed barbarian package as a general idea, and I had an idea for a guerrilla skirmisher barbarian.
Give barbarians a shot in the arm, Beamdog. Maybe a little bonus or two during early levels, and then something to keep you coming back all the way into the epic reaches of ToB. Offer scaling bonuses that make them look more appealing (extend the damage reduction table perhaps, even make it more frequent). Offer barbarian kits, let them dual-class... please, give us some reason aside from flavor to pick barbarian.
EDIT: In this thread http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22440/kit-concepts-you-would-like-to-see/p1 @Schneidend gets credit for coming up with a cold-themed barbarian package as a general idea, and I had an idea for a guerrilla skirmisher barbarian.
Post edited by LordRumfish on
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They're not bad and the loss of plate armor is not huge in BG2. While they're not a huge powergaming choice they don't have to be, they are definitely a viable character throughout the series.
Due to that +2 speed bonus, they can literally run circles around melee characters without ever being damaged, and their high speed also minimizes the number of ranged attacks an enemy can fire before they close the distance, granting them basically complete immunity to melee damage and several points of effective AC due to simply negating several extra ranged attacks a slower character would've had to avoid via high AC.
They eventually get so tough they no longer even have to avoid lesser attacks and can plow through most mooks without issue.
I've mentioned it before, but a barbarian is already basically a F/C multi as a single, faster leveling class except they can only self-buff themselves. Their rage gives a banket immunity to a lot of effects replacing most buffs and is a mini-DUHM. Their innate DR is a passive AoF. But they can wield whatever weapons they want and have built-in boots of speed and immunity to BS, and will generally have a HELL of a lot more HP then a F/C multi would've.
@zerckan Shazbat! Oy vey! I yield internet, I yield! I *still* think it'd be cool if barbarians had just a little bit more going for them, but clearly I am in the minority. I will defend the idea of barbarian kits to the bitter end though, no matter how convincing or popular the arguments against it.
1. The Barbarian is not eligible for weapon mastery. In BG:EE, this once minor disadvantage is now a major handicap as weapon mastery has been greatly improved.
2. Barbarian rage is largely duplicated by Berserker rage. Berserkers are now superior DPSers as they also have mastery.
3. Barbarians are no longer the most effective tanks. Dwarven Defenders have the same hit dice, higher physical resistances, special defensive abilities and can use any armour. I should also point out that Dwarven Defenders are superior in battle, at least with axes/hammers.
In short, the once mighty Barbarian has spectacularly fallen. I try not to think of it, lest I go into a rage myself. Still, the kit is unlikely to change. It's still a useful kit and it's very true to concept.
As mentioned several times, Mastery and beyond is supposed to be exclusive to vanilla fighters only. Kits give it up automatically, since their extra abilities and fluff give those classes more depth to draw players, while all the fighter can do is be a general master of weaponry.
The berserker's rage is grossly overpowered and lacks all of it's disadvantages (though this also applies to the barbarian, barbarian rage is just supposed to set str to 18/00, immunity to sleep, charm, command, and +2 all saves for 5 rounds). The kensai is supposed to be limited to proficiency in a single type of weapon
Berseker rage (1 turn): +2 attack +2 damage -2 ac +15 temporal hp. Immunity charm confusion fear feeblemind hold imprisonment lvl drain maze stun sleep. Becomes winded after berseking : -2 penalty to Ac, Atack and Damage.
I prefer Barbarian rage over Berseker rage except when fighting lich.
Both rages are great. The problem for me is not that one rage is better. However, I'd argue that the Berserker is a stronger fighter overall because he gets to use a rage ability that stacks with weapon mastery.
@ZanathKariashi: You're right - many of the kits have been implemented differently than PnP, and the vast majority are overpowered as a result. For some, that's part of the fun of the game! Still, I'd like to try another experience at some point. I think someone should do a 'True to PnP' kit mod at some point (if they haven't already).
The rage gives a -2 penalty because they're fighting without regard for their own safety, but because they're not afraid of dying or avoiding attacks they can strike harder and more accurately. But once the rage ends they're now too exhausted to defend themselves properly and continue to suffer the -2 penalty, and now gain a -2 hit/damage as well.
Not only that, they left out the 30% chance of going berserk and losing control per round. And the prevent any form of healing while enraged while preventing you from seeing their current life-total. Just adding those in would help balance the class immensely, even if they left the immunities the same. (And if my Wild Mage can have a 5% chance per spell of risking a TPK (or upwards of 60-70% if using Naehl's at a pre-20 level) then a berserker can risk losing control during their over-powered rage (and they're still MUCH safer then a wild-mage doing his thing).
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As for the PnP thing...I wish I didn't suck at modding. I've been able to make a few small tweaks and modifications to my own stuff, but I still haven't figured out some of the deeper stuff, and spell-making is a ton of work, even if you're just stealing effects from other spells. I've mostly just stuck to modifying existing spells since you don't have to mess with the dialog.tlk. (my current project is a PnP-accurate Chromatic Orb (see my New Evocation spells request for details, also available in the New Alteration spells request).
I did think up a minor compromise for Project Image, since I don't think it's possible for it to use up the caster's spells. Just make it into a lesser version of simulacrum. Move it down to 6th, where it's supposed to be, and then have it work like Simulacrum, except the image is only 1/3 the caster's level and can't physically attack or use items, just cast spells. It would still be a powerful spell at higher levels, but not to the ridiculously gamebreaking extent the current one is.
And as another tweak, make sure that all image spells, except Simulacrum (8th) has the song tab disabled, to prevent the singing images exploit.
"Every 4 levels they gain an additional use of Barbarian Rage.
At level 15 they get Greater Rage: +6 STR and CON, -2 AC"
Even adding the Greater Rage ability, it would improve them very much.
Anyway, I do agree that would be a nice small tweak that could be done for barbarians.
I went with the 3.0E version instead of the 3.5E because the latter would be too strong for a BG2 class.
The 3.5E version is as follows.
"Greater Rage at 11th level.
Tireless Rage at 17th level.
Mighty Rage at 20th level. +8 STR and CON, -2 AC"
A Half-Orc Barbarian in BG with 19 STR and CON already reaches the cap of 25 with Greater Rage. That is why no further boost is needed.
Though in order for that to work, they'd have to nerf the crap out of all them, down to their proper levels of power.
Also, the expanded proficiency chart is meant as a high level ability. A fighter (vanilla only) is only supposed to be able to place 3 points in a weapon once they reach level 9, 4 at 12, and 5 at 15. The expanded proficiency system was actually made for giving the vanilla fighter a valid reason to continue progressing meaningfully once their HP progression stopped, compared to their kits who generally got all sorts of neat abilities or other perks to make them more interesting as they leveled.
Beamdog has been moving some parts of the game closer to 2nd edition original design, but... they also made blackguard so I wouldn't count on balance. Reinventing the HLAs, and possibly keeping the current ones with a level requirement that's higher, would be interesting.
Before dwarven defender came along I do think barbarians had a niche for end-game tanking when AC no longer matters. If you don't like being a dwarf, I guess they still have that niche.
They are an extremely powerful melee character, with several little nice perks, and were given an stupidly overpowered buff. They don't need anything else. They can use consumables and equipment to cover defensive needs, like every other class does. But due to their powerful blanket immunities are stronger then most other classes.
Now that said, I do agree that barbarians should be able to dual-class, since they are functionally and mechanically a fighter kit, but not until their rage is brought down to it's proper power level. (Same for the other fighter kits).
Or just add the Human (Barbarian) Cultural sub-type. Which gets basically the abilities of the barbarian, as any class available to that culture, but due to their cultural beliefs also have additional restrictions.
In 2nd edition, the Babrarian kit was just a fighter who people either liked or hated more strongly (no rage or any special abilities at all) due to their cultural flair being either viewed as cool or savage (and yes, they were still limited to normal specialization like all fighter kits since their background fluff made for more interesting characters vs the bland vanilla fighter). Complete Barbarian calls that kit the "civilized" barbarian, who has lost basically everything that made them a barbarian by being softened by civilization and turning their back on their roots.
* They appear as a separate menu item in the list of base classes, rather than a submenu of fighter.
* They cannot dual-class, suggesting that they are not a fighter kit at all but a separate entity.
* They are given a class write-up in their description, not a kit write-up.
You can put forth eloquent arguments about the pen-and-paper implementation, but as far as the game mechanics go, barbarian is a stand-alone class and they need to have their own kit support as far as I'm concerned.
And do you know what the net result would be?
Copy and pasting the Berserker, Wizard Slayer, Stalker, Cleric, Beastmaster, Totemic Druid, Druid, Skald, + all the abilities of a barbarian. Since that's what their kits do. Because the barbarians are meant to be a "race", not a class.
For what it's worth, I would support having a barbarian subrace, it sounds pretty cool and with a very flavorful selection of class choices. I don't think they would get rid of the barbarian class at this point though, so I have a feeling if it got implemented that you could become a Barbarian Barbarian.
I am not as pessimistic about barbarian kits "not working." I'm sure they could be made to work if people put in the effort, even if you have to make them fighter kits that appear under the Barbarian class heading. There is plenty of potential for cool ideas using barbarian kits, 3.0 and 3.5 D&D proved this with prestige classes and various alternate class options.