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(Edited Name) Creating a more mage like bard for BGEE

XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
edited November 2013 in General Modding
I've created a few kits before for personal use (It's becoming second nature) but I'm kind of going a step further now and having a small bit of trouble with it. It's for a bard kit and I've never messed with a bard/thief kit before that had those types of abilities. I'm also using DLTCEP so if maybe anyone has any advice or knows a link that can help me out then I would be very grateful

I'm trying to:

Give one extra spell per level
Halve the amount of pick pocketing
Bardsong does not improve with levels

Post edited by Xavioria on
«1

Comments

  • randyroorandyroo Member Posts: 54
    i'm a beginner too, i just cant get that damn weidu to work so i cant add a class i can only mod existing ones or ones people set to autoinstall anyways

    to give one extra skill per level
    you will have to make a skill in dltcep (9 in fact 1 for each spell lvl) using wizard spell slot modifier 42 (this is what the evermemory uses) i guess you already know how to add skills to clab****.2da

    half amount of pickpocketing
    use stat modifier 92 create skill and apply skill in clab again

    bardsong does not improve
    i think you could use. spell effect:change bard song effect 251 though i wouldnt know what to put into the resource box to prevent it from leveling

    note theres probably an easier way cos checking the blade's clab file clabba02.2da which has 1/2 pickpocketing as well as no bardsong progression all that's in it is add the skills offensive and defensive spin which means they have made these changes somewhere else.

    Xavioria
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @randyroo I actually did figure it out a few days after posting this, I suppose I was just a bit confused as to how DLTCEP worked but after figuring a few things out, it really does just open itself up. I did make the kit, it's a bard kit (which I use Weidu to install) that is based primarily around its spell casting ability, since I haven't seen any bard like that yet.

  • LillyhimeLillyhime Member Posts: 36
    What sort of spells? I've always loved playing as a theify-mage types and so bard is my goto class but I havent ever found a bard kit that I liked in terms of spell casting. ._.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Lillyhime I created a bard kit that is more like a mage, if you want, I could post the class here and you can tell me if you like it!

    Advantages:
    – Gains an extra mage spell per level
    – Gains a +2 bonus to Save vs. Spells

    Disadvantages:
    – Cannot use ranged weapons
    – Half the normal pick pocket value

    I'm calling it a Loretheif at the moment. I'm really liking it so far, the extra spell per level makes it feel like a normal mage with a few extra weapons. I figured out how to intigrate it into the game after the patch, which was SOOO annoying, but it's actually working really well. I just need to fix the color because he's all green......

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Xavioria - There is an official Bard kit called the 'Loremaster' which might be worth having a look at. It is similar to what you want: A more magey bard.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @EntropyXII I went looking for this Loremaster... was unable to find it, but I'm not actually looking for a magey bard, as the one that I have listed, I have created already and already played it. Thank you though, I wasn't aware of the Loremaster, and should I find it, or if anyone has a link to it anywhere, i wouldn't mind taking a look

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - How did you end up integrating it with the patch? I've been trying to install a couple of kits I've been working on, but the name and description keeps on coming up as the default class instead of the new kit. They otherwise are getting the proper abilities, though, so it's definitely installing.

    Also, how are you finding the balance of the kit? I have a bard NPC I'm working on, and the kit I'm currently considering using with her is the +1 spell per level and only 25% pickpocket. I'm never sure about the balance of these things, though!

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    edited November 2013
    @Rhaella I'm actually having the same issue with the name and kit description once the character is created, as it's just reading as a bard. I believe you're supposed to use clastext.2da which i suppose is nice, but I'm a little unsure of how to use it yet, so if you figure that out plz let me know, I'm going to keep going through it so that I will know what to do... And I have no idea what FAI is......

    To answer your second question, I find that pickpocketing reduction isn't so much as balancing as it is filler. Pick pocketing isn't a battle strategy in any way ( that I know of anyways) that I can tell so I didn't see much use in reducing it more than half. Taking away the ranged weapons actually balances it more heavily than I realized... since they have spells, and can cast at range, my kit is very useful, especially with that extra spell. But once all the spells are gone, they have to either get up in the fray, which can be dangerous for a bard who doesn't have very powerful THAC0 or he can sing his song, which doesn't improve with levels.

    It fits a nice niche without being too underpowered or over powered. I was thinking of using an AC reduction to give another benefit, but I'm thinking that might be over kill. I would love to see what bard kit you're using though :)

    Post edited by Xavioria on
    Rhaella
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Xavioria - 'The Complete Bard's Handbook' 2nd Edition

    There is a .pdf file of it on the first page of google. Second link down.

    I'd post the link but I'm not entirely sure if I am allowed to..!

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - Ahh, so the same problem. I'll need to prod more at the weidu people at some point and see what they can tell me, but I'll probably wait until after the compiling issue is fixed.

    I wanted a bard kit that actually was strongly musically oriented, and the concept of the Elven Minstrel kit in the AD&D bard handbook, where magic and music kind of started melding together, was pretty attractive. Giving an extra spell per level seemed a nice way to spin that. Figuring out disadvantages is harder, though, since a music based kit really should probably not take a hit to that bardsong. If you need to always have an instrument in your hands to be able to cast at all, though, weapon restrictions might make sense. Nothing that needs two hands.

    I'd also been considering a kit that gives the bard some divine spells to work with as well, because this bard would be associated with the Church of Milil anyway, but that's a less attractive option.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella well then why not just add a small amount of defensive priest spells to their repitoire of spells? If you think about it, that's an advantage AND a disadvantage at the same time because you have to waste a spell slot on one of those spells, instead of the expansive list of mage spells that they have access to.

    In terms of instruments.... I'm actually interested in what you have in mind... I don't believe there are any "instrument" weapons in the game.

    Also disadvantages could be as simple as a hit to THAC0, or AC. I've noticed that disadvantages aren't just to balance the class, but also to make practical and/or roleplaying sense. A Cavalier for instance has a RIDICULOUS amount of benefits, and all they can't do is use ranged weapons. Obviously, they're meant to be in the fray, and making it so they can't use ranged weapons does that.

    I think It's wiser to pick disadvantages that mix together to provide the perfect niche.

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - yeah, I'm trying to figure out what does make sense from a RPing stance, because combat penalties reeeeaallly don't so much in this situation. I might just go the divine route with the pickpocket hit. The only reason it's less than ideal is because I'm working on an NPC duo, and the other half will have divine powers anyway. More might be overkill, haha. (I can PM you if you want more info there.)

    I don't have any specific plans for instruments yet. There wouldn't be any as weapons per se, though I am definitely going to need to think about instrument items at some point.

    As for working instruments in with kit disadvantages, I could *probably* just take a buckler, switch the icon to a harp, remove its bonuses, and shove it in the shield slot to keep the character from being able to use anything two-handed, but that seems like an *extremely* clumsy solution to granting kit disadvantages.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella well why do instruments have to be worked in that way? Why don't you just create quickslot items that are instruments that do different things, and make it so the kit in question can't use two handed items? Of course I could see where you might think someone might try to get the bard to dual weild, but I suppose perhaps you could make it so the bard isn't allowed to have any slots in two weapon style as a disadvantage, then put in the ability to have an extra slot in SINGLE weapon style as an advantage?

    As for the bard being a follower of Milil, why don't you form it into their back story? Mazzy Fentan is a devout follower of... someone I can't recall, but she's not a priest of any kind, but the fact she's a follower of a specific diety is evident. Although I'm not entirely sure if you're making an NPC duo, or just trying to make a kit.

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - Mazzy worships Arvoreen. And actually does end up with some minor paladin abilities!

    I was just trying to figure out the kits for the NPCs in question. Divine powers for the bard definitely aren't necessary, but may be easier than trying to figure out how to properly balance a kit that allows for additional spellcasting. Though then I look at Edwin and his additional 2 spells per level for free, and I wonder how important balance even is, haha.

    But no, I would definitely use quick slots for any instruments I end up making. What I wasn't sure on was whether there was any easy way to prevent a character from using any two-handed weapon--taking away proficiencies is one thing, but I'm not sure how to disable the ability to use the weapon altogether. And I don't know of any other class or kit that takes them away to grab their usability flags.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella That's a good point... I didn't even think that there were any usability flags against two handed weapons... but perhaps there might be a few ways around the usability flags? Perhaps making it so that the bard can only become proficient in one handed weapons that a thief can use? Unless if you wanted your bard to be able to use things like bastard swords, and axes...?

  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    edited November 2013
    Xavioria said:

    I have no idea what FAI is...

    @Xavioria

    I've realised (by accident) that NI is not displaying the full row of column names. If you export "clastext.2da" and open it with a text editor, you can see that "FAI" is just the first portion of the word "FALLEN" (values are 0 if class/kit is not fallen, 1 otherwise) and it is the second to last column name. The last being "BRIEFDESC".

    I don't know why NI is not showing fully the column names.

    Xavioria
  • mr_namelessmr_nameless Member Posts: 37
    edited November 2013
    You could try out the Rogue Rebalancing MOD. I think it updates the bard's spell progression, gives some more abilities and kits. But I'm not sure you can cast more spells. You can go up to level 9 though, so this is great for BGEE2 :)
    Personally I always like to tweak the Familiar's CRE files, since they are kind of useless but cool to have with a Bard :) With Nearinfinity I add magical/thief abilities and make them more difficult to hit (raise AC).

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @mr_nameless that's interesting I didn't realize that RR gave bards the ability to go up to level 9... granted I can easily edit a 2da file that will grant it, but still, maybe the other bonuses in it might give me some other things that could prove to be useful

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - you know, another thought when it comes to giving additional spells -- going the wizard specialist road and banning schools entirely.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella yea, that would be a crazy disadvantage, I just don't know which school would make the most sense..... besides, adding only one spell per level would put them on par with a regular mage... Which school would you not let them use?

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    edited November 2013
    @Xavioria -- I'd do Conjuration and/or Necromancy. As the opposition schools to Divination and Illusion, respectively, either school makes sense as something a bard would lose. You could say the same about Evocation, since it's in opposition to Enchantment, but... yeah. Not happening for me, at least.

    Necromancy doesn't lose you *that* much, I don't think. That school doesn't start getting indispensable until level 7, which the bard isn't going to have anyway. Death Spell is nice to have around, and Horror is fun, but eh. Conjuration is a bit uglier, especially with the level 6 summons, but losing it kind of pushes home the fact that this is *not* a replacement mage.

    I *think* I've figured out how to alter the bard song also, so what I'm considering doing at this point for my Minstrel kit is going very tricky with the magic:

    Advantages:
    -- Bard Song that improves: regular immunity to fear at level 1, adds 5% magic resistance at level 15, and then immunity to confusion at level 20.
    (Like with the Skald kit, it'd be picking up some of those bonuses from the Enhanced Bard Song, but the magic based ones instead of the combat ones. Then once you get Enhanced Bard Song, unlike Skald, the kit doesn't cease to be relevant.)

    -- 1 Extra Spell per level.

    -- Possibly +2 Saving Throw vs. Spell

    Disadvantages:

    - May not learn or cast any spells of the Necromancy or Conjuration schools. (Really inclined to go with both, because 1 spell per level is proportionally a bigger step up for a bard than it is for a mage.)

    - Only has one half the normal Pick Pockets score.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella I don't think I would actually ban two schools... and those two are like the powerhouse part of being a mage besides evocation, although I see what you're saying about this bard not being a replacement mage.

    In the first game... it might seem like the bard DOES become a second mage... but in BG2 the bard in question would be gimped so much due to the fact of the two school restriction and the inability to cast past level 6.

    BUT the ban isn't such a bad idea either... I can see where this bard would become more useful. The only problem is that the bard is going to be put in some second rate niche where their only real powerful spells will be evocation, and they can't go head to head because they lack armor from conjuration unless if they start switching out chain mails.

    Then again you did allow ranged weapons... so maybe that's a big balancing factor.

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    edited November 2013
    @Xavioria - I'm not really sure, actually!

    I switched around the bard song stuff so that you only get 2% magic resistance at level one and then 5% and fear immunity at level 15, because it was way easier to code. Which means that once you get into the higher levels, that bard song is going to start becoming more useful than the normal one. I love confusion immunity. I *could* add the Skald's stun immunity back in also, but I don't want it to be as powerful as the Skald's song. Though I'm not adding the AC and damage adjustments, so maybe stun would be reasonable.

    As for spells, your abjuration spells are at least as important as your heavy offensive ones, I think, so letting the bard focus on lowering magic resistance, breaching, and so forth while a mage goes for the summons would probably work nicely, while still being enough of a disadvantage that you'd notice. And pretty much all of a bard's abilities are about support anyway (hello, bard song), so it would make sense.

    Once you hit ToB, you get Use Every Item, and so you can at least cast those powerful spells from scrolls. (You still can't copy them into your spellbook, I just checked, but using them is no problem.) Hilariously, you can scribe a monster summoning scroll even if you have no access to conjuration, haha. (You should probably keep this in mind for your own disadvantages as well, since those ranged weapons will come back eventually.)

    And since this kit is for an NPC--well, I'm about 85% certain I'm giving her the default elven chain mail anyway. She's half-elven and hangs out in elf-infested countries, so it makes no sense that she wouldn't have gotten it at some point. So maybe the lack of conjuration would be a good balance justification for going that route.

    Xavioria
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella Sorry for lack of response, been really sick the last couple of days and couldn't even make it downstairs.

    I know I'm going to probably get a little flack for saying this, but this is why I have always hated UAI. You're absolutely right, but certain players only really think about the end game when looking at disadvantages, so doesn't that kind of make them a bit obsolete? Granted they still won't be able to put any proficiency in the bows, but still.... I swear such a ridiculous ability... I kinda feel like they should alter UAI to exclude anything that the class prohibits... but perhaps that just defeats the purpose of UAI. I honestly am not sure as I have never played a theif or bard all the way through ToB (Always used Imoen)

    If I haven't said it already, I will say it now... the bard song difference is actually pretty awesome. I kinda thought having bard song compared to the other stuff was too over powering, but I think you're idea is wonderful. I would probably take out the stun OR the confusion immunity though. I think having both is a bit overpowered.

    Lastly Idk about what you're describing with spells because wouldn't the "support" role of the bard make it more like a cleric than a support mage? Personally after seeing your list, Maybe it would be better to take away things like abjuration in place of conjuration? Just a thought?

    And heavy ROFL at the term "elf-infested". SOMEONE doesn't like elves XD

  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 177
    @Xavioria - ack, sorry to hear you've been sick. =(

    Yeah, I'm not too impressed by Use Any Item either. I mean, for the most part, I don't think it gets in the way of actual kit disadvantages, but that gnome Thief/Illusionist is suddenly going to have access to Necromancy again. I wouldn't suggest it and I haven't looked into how to do it, but you technically *could* customize the High Level Abilities for your kit to remove it.

    But yeah, I'm wondering about the Stun and Confusion also. For one, I'm not really sure how powerful that 5% Magic Resistance actually is compared to the default Skald Song. I put Immunity to Stun back in because I felt like with two school restrictions, it was losing too much compared to the Skald. Though I suppose I could cut back to one school restriction and depower the level 20 song a bit.

    I don't really think losing Abjuration would make as much sense here, though. I'm playing with some of the lore of the Elven Minstrel (the bits that aren't "omg elves are so awesome, let's worship them", at least), and they seem to favor "natural" things, and the schools of Necromancy and Conjuration... about as unnatural as magic can get. Just ask Valygar! I'm not sure whether death magic or demon summoning is more unnatural, but it really should be at least one of the two that goes.

    I don't mind elves! Okay, I obviously have certain issues with the elitism that goes on with Faerunian elves, but I think Silverymoon officially qualifies as elf-infested! It's like 20% elf and an additional 10% half-elf! And too good-aligned to exist! (My NPCs are not actually from Silverymoon--too sugary sweet and perfect for my tastes--but there's a major temple to Milil there, so they'd have to have visited it somewhat regularly.)

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Rhaella OH my goodness I didn't mean to detach from the convo, the illness was really nothing but a minor stomach thingie...

    but ANYWHO, i never liked UAI because I feel like it altered the class to something totally different... granted they're still obviously the same class, I just feel like it shifts things around too much...

    MAYBE the 5 percent MR isn't enough to add disadvantages for... and anything extra added to it might be overpowered, MIGHT be, I think it deserves to be thought of a bit more, but maybe having both the confusion and the stun immunity in the song, and keeping MR to abjuration spells might be a better idea.

    And I absolutely love their arrogance... we elves totally deserve to be arrogant, have you seen suldenesselar? GORGEOUS!!

    Rhaella
  • ItomonItomon Member Posts: 182
    Spellsong (Bard Kit)

    A spellsong is a student of magic and the weave, and its interaction with the musical arts and enviromental sounds. They are respected among bards and mages alike, but truly never a master of any; instead, they travel in search of secret lore and hints that point them to further manipulation of arcane magic itself. An experienced Spellsong is valued among spellcasters in the battlefield, and can often turn the tide of a combat with their abilities and wisdom.

    Advantages:
    - When creating a Spellsong, choose either Abjurer, Diviner, Enchanter or Illusionist. Like a Specialist Mage, the Spellsong may cast one additional spell per level (including 1st level, with only one spell per day), but may not learn or cast any spells from the opposite school (Alteration, Conjuration, Invocation or Necromancy).
    - The Spellsong's song alters spellcasting, granting +2 caster level bonus for any arcane spellcasting of her chosen school, and -2 caster level penalty for any arcane spellcasting of her opposite school, to friends and foes within area of effect. Also, there are additional effects based on her chosen school, listed below:

    * Abjuration: Grants allies a +2 bonus to all saves, and can't be attacked by summoned demons
    * Diviner: Grants allies a +2 bonus to hit, and may reveal illusions (like detect illusion thief ability)
    * Enchanter: Grants allies a +2 bonus to damage rolls, and immunity to fear
    * Illusionist: Grants allies a +2 bonus to AC vs. missles, and may stealth the Spellsong (like thief abilities)

    These thief-like effects are based on her Lore value.
    - May wear mage robes

    Disadvantages:
    - When creating a Spellsong, choose either Abjurer, Diviner, Enchanter or Illusionist. Like a Specialist Mage, the Spellsong may cast one additional spell per level (including 1st level, with only one spell per day), but may not learn or cast any spells from the opposite school (Alteration, Conjuration, Invocation or Necromancy).
    -Only has one half the normal Pick Pockets score.
    -May not wear any armor (but mage robes)

    RAM021
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Itomon, oh! did you make this kit? There's a fair bit of work involved here.... especially for the mage robes... but don't you think this kit makes the bard a mage and takes away too many bardic abilities?

  • ItomonItomon Member Posts: 182
    edited November 2013
    Xavioria said:

    @Itomon, oh! did you make this kit? There's a fair bit of work involved here.... especially for the mage robes... but don't you think this kit makes the bard a mage and takes away too many bardic abilities?

    Sorry, I still dont know how to make mods, so it was just a concept. I don't even know if it is possible to create it.

    When talking about arcane spellcasting, disabling armor is just natural. A "mage-like" bard should not wear armor at all.


    I can picture another concept for Bard kit:

    - - - - -

    Bookman (Bard Kit)

    Bookman is a warrior dedicated to collect history and lore around the world and register it. Bookmen train under rigid monastic discipline and can only start traveling at mature age. They are skilled writers, poets and painters, whose art is capable of reproducing historical facts with life and emotions for those who can appreciate it. Mages often seek the services of Bookman, but they are loyal to themselves only.

    Advantages:
    - The Bookman can attempt to create one arcane scroll by spending a memorized spell; this ability requires the consumption of one gem from Bookman's inventory and has a chance of failure (success improves with gem's gold value). The Bookman can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and gains an additional use each 6 levels thereafter (2/day at lvl 8, max. 4/day at level 20).

    Disadvantages:
    - cannot wear any armor

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Well @Itomon, the issue with a bard, is how to balance it and make it useful... because the bard is the "jack-of-all-trades" class, so it can be really difficult to give it a kit, and make sure it's not OP, without giving up the jack of all trades thingie that bards basically have.

    The biggest thing with creating a drawback, and this is JUST my opinion, is that the right drawback can put the class in the correct niche and basically you lead the player to what that class is really designed for. A bard not being able to wear armor SUCKS, because they're basically fighter/mages who can excell through levels faster than a multi-class can. This means no elven chain mail, which is kind of MADE for them...

    And the former class you listed is totally possible... a bit annoying with the mage robe part, but definitely doable :)

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