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The Constitution Controversy

Xan and Shar-Teel both prompted me to ask this question a long time ago, but I never did get round to it. Mainly, I wanted to ask why some players saw a low constitution score as a deal-breaker. To my knowledge, a low constitution score in 2nd Edition does not reduce the number of hit points a character gains per level to anything lower than the base hit point roll for their class. As such, Xan's 7 constitution should be no more abhorrent than any other Mage's 13 constitution, right? Admittedly, I accept that some people see Xan's Moonblade as an indication that he should be in melee, but let's be honest: even if he was earning 6 hp per level instead of 4, he would surely still die more often than not.

I do appreciate why people see Xan's specialisation as a reason to be discouraged from taking him along, but generally speaking I don't know why people are getting so caught up on HP. By BG2, I don't know the exact HP scores of any of my party members! Viconia's extreme dexterity score is much more valuable to me than Anomen's extra HP when it comes to selecting a tank (not to mention her magic resistance), because when push comes to shove I would rather a character a low AC than a lot of HP. After level 8-10, HP progression is negligible anyway.

What does everybody else think? Are people putting too much emphasis on the value of a high Constitution score?

Comments

  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    I think you get a -1 to HP if you have 3-5 Constitution, but that's nitpicking. :)

    Personally I don't discriminate on low-constitution NPCs. On the contrary I see a low constitution as an incentive for using the Claw of Kazgaroth.
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    edited October 2013
    I dont mind low constitution - especially considering all the warriors with 14 con.

    Speaking of Xan I think he is an awesome npc, if people feel they arent utilizing the variety of mage spells try to take him along. Xan's magery this run has been surprisingly effective.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2013
    Xan is kind of like Garrick, Alora, or Xzar. For his level he just gets terrible hit die rolls. He's found as a level 2 mage with 7 health, a level 4 mage with 12 health, or a level 6 mage with 17 health. Low HP isn't as noticeable in BG2 partly because of higher levels and better access to equipment and defensive spells. But in BG1 (particularly if you are new to the game) he starts off with a low enough health that it probably does discourage some people from using him. For the record I've actually got him in my current run through of BGEE!



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    I agree that there are NPC and character guides that put too much emphasis on the fact that certain NPC's have low constitution (without taking into consideration what that level of constitution actually means for gameplay). (Warning shameless plug) I've actually written up an NPC guide that I will be releasing on Steam when patch 1.2 hits Steam. Anyways in it I do my best to actually address on an individual NPC basis what certain stats actually mean for the character (including constitution in the case of Xan and Xzar).
    Post edited by elminster on
  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    @elminster An interesting party you've got there. With the exception of Kagain it almost looks like you attempted to put together some of the most underestimated NPCs.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    @elminster An interesting party you've got there. With the exception of Kagain it almost looks like you attempted to put together some of the most underestimated NPCs.

    Just NPC's I hadn't used in awhile :)
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    I won't lie, HP is a nice buffer against critical hits and unforeseen fireballs.

    If I have my game set for max HP rolls, then I don't really care. Everyone will have solid HP, even the squishy casters will climb over 30 HP by the game's end (or 40 HP by BG2).

    However, if I'm running a *real* core rules or harder game where I keep whatever the die rolls, I appreciate any NPC that has 15+ Con. How depressing is it for Shar-Teel or Dorn to roll a couple of 1's and 2's early in their career? To have Imoen end up with more HP than your tank? Casters are even more fragile, they might not be able to soak a critical hit even once by BG:EE level cap.

    This is a playstyle choice, and I don't let it stop me from taking low-Con NPCs (I care more about dialogue than mechanics). I like the certainty of having HP though, it's a useful buffer. Kagain on -2 AC is a better tank than Viconia on -6 AC. That's my opinion.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2013
    I think a lot of the players out there who obsess about CON are from the 3e+ generation, where one or two ability score points could mean the difference between a bonus or penalty to not only HP, but Fortitude saves, Concentration checks, and other skill-related issues in the game.

    In 1e and 2e the "no bonus" range is much broader (7-14) and bonuses and penalties to HP only occur at the exceptionally high (15+) or low end (3-6) of the scale. The system shock and resurrection survival percentages are what make the difference between a 7 CON and 14 CON. I think the 1 point CON loss every time an NPC is resurrected should be put back in the game. It think it would make dying a more "grave" event.

    As @elminster mentioned, it's interesting that the NPCs with the lowest CON scores seem to receive the worst HP rolls prior to recruiting them. If they join your party at level 6, Xzar has 12 (24 possible), Xan has 17 (24 possible), Viconia has 27 (48 possible), and Shar-Teel has 46 (60 possible). Aside from Shar-Teel, it looks like the developers were inferring that being on the lower end of the average CON scale means less luck when rolling for HP.

    I always play on core rules, so I take what I get when I level up. Playing a Necromancer with a starting CON of 8 means that I'll never have high HP, but I feel I shouldn't need it if I'm playing my character correctly.
    Post edited by Mortianna on
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    I don't see any controversy.

    The more HP your chars have, the easier the game will be.

    CON bonus may be less important if you roll max HP on levelups (either by setting game difficulty to Normal, or by reloading).

    But for some purists who play on Core (or especially higher, where HP is even more important) and consider rerolls a form of cheating, it's no small thing.
    On average, it almost doubles the HP at L10 (for mages, 1d4 means 2.5 on average and max CON bonus is 2. For fighters, 1d10 is 5.5 on average and realistic max bonus is 4-5) and even at maximum allowed char level in ToB still contributes roughly 1/3 of total HP for mages and 1/4 for fighters.



  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    meagloth said:

    Don't take damage.
    I find this works VERY well.

    I never thought of this! Did anyone else think of this? Such a game changer!

    Also, I seem to get awful rolls with Minsc 4 out of 5 times. Even though he has decent CON, I've always seen him as a low HP character because of the frequently bad rolls he get on level up.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Like somebody said here. I don't see any controversy here. If there is something I might see as controversional is the way second edition is treating HP bonuses and pentalies. Not only warrior classes (fighter/paladins/rangers) can have benefit from +16 level constitution, but also only very low and very high values can affect your overall HPs. I think 3rd edition did much better at this area.

    About NPCS. Maybe Shar-Teel isn't meant to be a tank, same for Dorn (especially in non EE BG, Shar-Teel was a beast with 2-handed sword. Now they made her just material for dual classing)? Maybe it's worth for Xan to memorize some protection spells? By the way, the fact that he has his Moonblade does not mean that you can use him in the front line. His Moonblade is just something (aside from his attitute) that makes him special.

    Now, I can kind of understand argument that it is quite depressing when character recieves 1 or 2 HPs per level, but it's just a risk. And without a risk there is no fun. Everything in DnD is based on rolling dices, so I see no point in maxing the HPs by choosing "normal" difficulty over "core" or using mods for that matter. It's equalivent of cheating for me.

    Xan has 1 Hp per level up, so what? I'll make him use more defensive spells, then (and maybe invisibility/shadow doors to escape in difficult situations). My fighters have avarege/less than avarege HPs? I'll memorize more healing/summoning spells then. Things like that makes each of my BG playthroughts more unique, and quality of playthrought is what I expect from Baldur's Gate.

    That's it from me regarding this topic.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    The biggest problem with low-Con mages is the dreaded Bandit ambush. Being unable to prepare for them, and having them throw at least one volley of arrows around can be lethal to a level 1-2 mage with low HP.

    Less of an issue when you're near-permanently stoneskinned at higher levels though.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Shar-Teel is still a beastly damage dealer, even without a 2H. I kind of like that they differentiated her from Dorn with the DWing. Just make sure you pick her up early so she doesn't put her points in Crossbow. XD
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Yes, from the NPCs that I encountered on my playthrough of BG:EE, Safana and Shar-Teel both were granted the two weapon style proficiency. I do quite like this for Shar-Teel, as her build certainly does seem built for a guerrilla style of play. That said, I don't think it is intended or in any way mandatory for her to be dualed to a thief to be fully utilized as an NPC.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2013

    Yes, from the NPCs that I encountered on my playthrough of BG:EE, Safana and Shar-Teel both were granted the two weapon style proficiency. I do quite like this for Shar-Teel, as her build certainly does seem built for a guerrilla style of play. That said, I don't think it is intended or in any way mandatory for her to be dualed to a thief to be fully utilized as an NPC.

    Sorry do you mean you gave Safana Two-Weapon Style proficiency? She doesn't start out with it. Personally I normally just use Shar-Teel as just a solid fighter.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @recklessheart In my interpretation of the character, Shar-Teel was supposed to be a solid fighter, just like @elminster said, but her weapon proficences are laughable in BG::EE. Well-builded, strong, cruel and merciless woman, who loves bloodshed is "proficent" with... a dagger and a long sword, dual wielding. It's obvious she is treated just like dual-classing material (to thief). Many people used Shar-Teel like this in the original version, so devs probably thought it would be a good idea to "fix" Shar-Teel
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199

    Well-builded, strong, cruel and merciless woman, who loves bloodshed is "proficent" with... a dagger and a long sword, dual wielding.

    I'm not entirely sure why you believe these things to be in opposition? Okay, maybe they should have gone with short sword over dagger, possibly.

    Dual-wielding can be pretty cruel and merciless, especially when you catch enemies off-guard with the insignificant dagger in your off-hand they failed to notice XD.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    @elminster I encountered Safana at her highest computerised level, and from what I recall I'm pretty sure she had two weapon style as a proficiency.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Safana


    Weapon Proficiencies (Level 2):
    * Scimitar * Darts

    Weapon Proficiencies (Levels 4 and 6):
    * Scimitar * Darts * Single Weapon Style

  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    @ZelgadisGW Shar-Teel is not the only NPC that has proficiency points that doesn't agree with everyone's playing routines, as I'm sure you're aware. For instance, in the original game I usually gave Khalid a two-handed sword and a bow, and I gave Ajantis bastard sword and shield. In BG:EE Khalid has points in long sword and bow (which doesn't compute for an NPC capped at level 8), while Ajantis has points in two-handed sword and bastard sword (also doesn't compute).

    Only the vanilla proficiencies from BG1 agrees with everyone, because those are the setups that you got used to. I'm pretty sure we won't see many players complaining over the BG2:EE proficiencies, because the same problem won't apply to that game, but in BG:EE developers had to make decisions that hopefully made as many players as possible happy. Unfortunately that doesn't make everyone happy.

    Anyway, I think this discussion is better left for another thread.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317



    Anyway, I think this discussion is better left for another thread.

    This
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