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Kensage vs Multiclass Fighter-Mage

Just wondering which comes out on top a fighter dualed mage or a mutilclassed fighter mage.

the dual classed fighter can get mastery in a weapon
and the multi will level slower have less spells and less pips into weapon spec

is there any advantage for the multi vs the dual

Comments

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    In terms of end-game power, probably not (though they will gain access to HLAs sooner, how much sooner depends on when you would otherwise dual. A 7-9 dual probably won't mean you wait too long, whereas a 13 dual will have to wait much longer).

    In addition to gaining access to HLAs 'sooner', Multi-class lacks the downtime of a dual-class, which means if you were, say, going for a Kensai 13 dual, you wouldn't have to play large amounts of SoA as one class or the other.
  • nikodemuspnikodemusp Member Posts: 9
    The multiclassed f/m can be a gnome for shorty saves and, more importantly, illusionist specialization which means more spells.
  • AramintaiAramintai Member Posts: 232
    Yea, the main advantage of F/M in SoA is that it's more fun to play, because you don't have to wait until your mage class levels up above your fighter class.
  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    The multi-class character will generally be a superior tank for all of BG:EE and the early part of BG2:EE. This is due to the ability to use armor in combination with defensive spells (e.g. Mirror Image, Blur, Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, etcetera). A dual class Kensai/Mage cannot access great defensive spells in BG:EE unless they dual class very early. Dual-classing early is not usually a good idea, the kensai gets many outstanding benefits from level 9-13.

    A multi-class Fighter/Mage can also use the Gauntlets of Weapon Mastery (found in Firewine ruins), which cannot be equipped by a Kensai. A multi-class Fighter/Mage with these gauntlets equipped is almost as powerful as the Kensai. That said, the Kensai is only marginally better in melee than the multi-class character for most of BG:EE. It's only around levels 6-7 that the Kensai becomes significantly better.

    If you're a multi-class Fighter/Mage, I think you also get access to both Fighter and Mage HLAs in BG:TOB. I don't think dual class characters get this benefit.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    You can get an extra spell slot per level with a gnomish Fighter/Illusionist. You can also get Gnome shorty saves or Elf racial bonuses on the multi. A multi also gains HLAs from the fighter pool, so you can stack in Hardiness with your Mirror Images and Stoneskins for added tankyness and get crazy with Critical Strikes. They also continue to gain THAC0 bonuses all the way to fighter level 20, so Kensage and F/M THAC0 is very similar.

    For a dual at BG1 levels then the maximum fighter level is 6 (Fighter 7 is 75k XP, Mage 8 is 90k so this better combo goes beyond the cap), narrowly missing out on the extra 1/2 attack at level 7 and unable to reach grandmastery inside the BG1 cap. At BG1 levels Kensages do not make sense compared to the multi.

    The optimal Kensage build is usually a 13 dual for maximum no. of attacks and THAC0, but this means you'll only actually get to play as a fighter/mage hybrid after accumulating 2.75 million XP. The Vanilla BG2 XP cap is 3 million.

    In reality they're pretty similar. I far prefer the multi as you get to start out with exactly what you wanted.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2013
    Silence said:



    If you're a multi-class Fighter/Mage, I think you also get access to both Fighter and Mage HLAs in BG:TOB. I don't think dual class characters get this benefit.

    Correct. Unless you dual class from a kensai at level 20 or higher you won't get fighter HLA's. Even in that kind of scenario you'd basically need to have a total of 6 million experience (combined between the classes) to get HLA's for both classes. F/M multiclass can get HLA's when they reach level 14 in both classes (3 million combined xp).
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    edited October 2013
    You can dual a Kensai at 9 or at 13. A Kensai dualed at 9 can function like a F/M for most of SoA, but basically plays like a pure mage with a bit more HP in mid-late ToB. A Kensai dualed at 13 has a LONG wait to get back his fighter abilities. Either Kensai has a lot of comparative power for the 5-6 (mage) levels right after getting their fighter abilities back.

    The comparative advantage of the Kensai is the earlier access to high-level spells. The tradeoff here is the downtime of the dual, plus dual-classed Kensai don't get fighter HLAs. A multiclass doesn't have the dualling period "downtime," and gets access to fighter HLAs, but won't get their level 9 spells until they hit 6mil XP - whereas the K/M duals get the level 9 spells at 4.3m XP.

    Multiclass is typically a smoother ride - I have to join some of the others here and highly recommend a Gnome F/I - the racial saving throw bonuses and +1 spell/level for giving up necromancy make this the most awesome of the multiclassed F/Ms in my book.
  • blueblue Member Posts: 39
    awesome! thanks for all the response!!
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    The downside of picking gnome is that you have to play a gnome. No one loves the gnomes :(
    Except Aerie.
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    @nano - true story, being unable to romance Viconia has always prevented me from playing a gnome in the past!
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Gnomes are like Marmite, you either love them or hate them.

    I used to think they were a bit of a bad joke but two things changed my mind. Firstly, the combination of shorty saves and multiclass specialist mages makes my powergaming side very happy. Secondly Jan Jansen. So many stupid stories. So many insults directed at Anomen. Bliss.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I love Jan! But it's so hard to take gnomes seriously. They usually end up as comic relief.

    Gnomeo and Juliet (don't judge me, it was a long plane ride) opened me up to the idea of gnome protagonists.

    Maybe it's time for a dark and brooding gnome hero. A gnome who strives to throw off the wacky reputation of his kin and demands to be taken seriously. Stop laughing or your knees will regret it!
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    The downtime of dual classes is incredibly frustrating. On the other hand, a multi can feel a bit underpowered when everyone else is slinging around time stop while you're still stuck with level 7 spells.
  • blueblue Member Posts: 39
    how does bard fit into this? isn't a bard basically a F/M/T?
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    A multiclass Fighter/Mage is still a melee powerhouse. They're not purely for slinging spells, more for self-buffing and stripping protections then hitting things hard. Half of the bread-and-butter spells of a Fighter/Mage are obtained at BG1 levels as well, seeing as you can already stoneskin, fireshield and mirror image before the level cap.

    Timestop is all well and good, but 10 attacks per round every round using improved haste and simultaneously being immune to everything is nothing to sneeze at.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    It's days like these that I wish I had known how to play a Fighter/Mage remotely back when I used to play one.
  • OlleDenStoreOlleDenStore Member Posts: 43
    And of course there's always the option of making a multi-classed kensai/mage with EE keeper :)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited October 2013
    The answer depends on several factors, like mods or party composition and size, and whether you are playing BG1, BG2, or both.

    In BG1, a F/M is probably superior since the Kensai->Mage will not be a Mage at all, just a Kensai.

    In BG2, things become a bit more tricky. F/M is very easy to handle and convenient to play, while dualing a Kensai into a Mage comes with some hurdles. I wouldn't advise dualing at 13 unless you are playing with a very small party and have a lot of metaknowledge (and the will to use it); Dualing at 9 is easier, but still comes with downtime in which you need to micromanage more. Multiclasses are fairly consistent in their power-growth, but duals are not. The upside of this is that after a while, they not only catch up to a multiclass, but overtake it.

    The reason for this is simple: fighters are early peakers. Their bonus HP stop at level 10, their bonus APR stop at level 13; after that, you gain very little per level until you reach HLAs, and even those aren't spectacular. Mages on the other hand become ludicrously powerful at higher levels, and they continue to gain spell-slots all the way up to level 35. A level as a mage is, in essence, "worth more" than a level as a fighter. Multiclass characters of course have symetric progression - their XP is evenly divided among both their classes. That means you are essentially losing out on mage levels in return for fighter levels, which don't actually get you a lot. A dual-class is different: you get fighter levels only up to the point where diminishing returns kick in, and then switch to the late-plateau mage levels, essentially increasing your overall power by "spending" xp more efficiently.

    And then there's the kit bonuses. Duals get to be Kensais instead of plain fighters, which increases their damage noticeably (both passively and through use of Kai). Their downsides are practically negated completely by dualing into mage, since they can still wear mage robes and in any case are protected by so many mage buffs that a lack of armor is irrelevant. A lack of bracers/gloves can be mitigated by simply giving the two good gloves in the game (i.e. the ones that add damage) to other party members. Also, unless you mod it so, multiclasses cannot achieve Grandmastery - meaning that the dual will do significantly more damage. Make no mistake: both F/M and Kensai->Mage are fighters first. They do their damage by hitting things, not by casting spells. Spells are to defend, disable, dispel - weapons are for the damage. As such, better melee performance is a much bigger benefit than spell-casting enhancements such as you would get from being a gnome F/M (= Illusionist).

    All that being said, there is no definitive answer. Under the right circumstances, a multiclass can catch up with, and potentially even surpass a dual. And being easier and more convenient to use is not something that can be neglected for many people: dualing takes work, planning, and a certain deeper understanding and knowledge of the game's content and mechanics. It's not for everyone. Doubly so because in an unmodded vanilla game, the finer differences in damage etc. may not even be pronounced enough to really make a difference. But when you start cranking up the difficulty, every little piece of extra damage is a gift you'd not want to do without... ;)
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