Chaotic Neutral

Felspawn

Can BG2:EE be updated to reflec the newer Take on Chaotic Neutral, instead of the insanity alightment it use to represent?


Chaotic Neutral

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.

LordRumfish

I roleplay this way anyhow, because the updated descriptions of the alignments make more sense and allow more flexibility. I agree that it would be nice to update the old descriptions, but on the other hand... it's part of what makes 2nd edition 2nd edition. Outdated game tech, swingy power curves, limited viewpoints on alignment, bizarre rules interactions, the works. If we're here for nostalgia, then let's have it the way they played it in the 80's and 90's. It might not be up with modern times, but it reminds us of the way things used to be in the less polished days.

Time4Tiddy

I would like better a system like NWN2 where your alignment changes as you play. I always start as True Neutral (unless class-choice forces me) and then let it swing where it will.

And to be fair, I don't feel that the Chaotic Neutral NPCs in BG2 are necessarily insane. Haer'Dalis in particular very much fits the description you provided. Anomen is more of a mid-life crisis than insane, can't blame him really, and Jan is a true libertarian, even if he is the craziest of the three.

Zarakinthish

@Time4Tiddy
A bit off topic, but by libertarian, I would assume you mean the European meaning of the word, not the American meaning. I still recall an interesting conversation that came about when I talked to someone from France about the difference.

nano

@Zarakinthish Interesting, what's the difference?

Zarakinthish

It has been some time since I had that discussion so this may not be entirely accurate. In the US, a libertarian is someone who is part of or believes in the ideals of Libertarian Party. I won't go in to what those ideals are here, as I am not exactly the best person to ask, and it would be much too long a post. Back to the matter at hand, as I recall the guy from France called libertarians as being nearly equivalent with anarchists there.

alnair

In Italy we have a similar word (libertari) and it is, indeed, pretty much the same of "anarchist".

Time4Tiddy

My understanding is that the main difference is that libertarians in the US want government to leave them alone, but still respect that some government is necessary for things like infrastructure and national defense. Libertarians in Europe want no government at all.

Chaotic_Good

I think of chaotic neutral as like Andrew Zimmerman, Adam Lorenza, or Ronald Reagan. Some one that acts in an evil manner not because of intent but ignorance, imbalance, and counter productivity. Not That they do not do good deeds, but the ones they do are not intended. Socrates - There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.

LordRumfish

Chaotic_Good said:

I think of chaotic neutral as like Andrew Zimmerman, Adam Lorenza, or Ronald Reagan. Some one that acts in an evil manner not because of intent but ignorance, imbalance, and counter productivity. Not That they do not do good deeds, but the ones they do are not intended. Socrates - There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.

Yeah, that sounds like my jester. She did a lot of good things for people, but mostly it was so she would have something to do. Her ethics are very grey and her judgment is questionable (started with 4 Wis, ended with 7). When she would kill people that lowered reputation, it was generally because she thought they deserved to die and took justice into her own hands, not because it benefitted her personally. She did good for evil reasons, and evil for good reasons, or sometimes the reasons really didn't have that much intent behind them. She wasn't a lunatic though, she just enjoyed people's reactions when she acted like one. She's a jester, after all.

Silverstar

It always bothered me when games make CN characters insane since people then automatically then assume all CN characters are. I prefer the "do whatever the hell they want" stamp as a default definition too.

Wouldn't it be a bit odd to change its description without touching the other ones too though? And you can bet the purists would, rightfully so, get quite annoyed if that happened. Better to leave it alone probably.

BelgarathMTH

Lest anyone from Europe get the wrong idea, the "Libertarian political party" in the U.S. is a fringe group with zero representation in Congress and pretty much zero chances of getting elected. We had one state governor get elected who was a Libertarian (Jesse Ventura, Minnesota), but he was a minor celebrity, and very much a fluke as a politician. The U.S. is still de facto a two-party government - Democrats and Republicans.

Still, if you use the word "libertarian" to an American, they are going to think "Huh, what does this have to do with Jesse Ventura's fringe political party?", more than likely. It is not a word in common use in the U.S.

It is so uncommonly used, writers are best off to avoid using it unless they want to explain exactly what they mean by it. In the context of the alignment description above, I read it as "individualistic, loving freedom." It has no association with "anarchy" in any context I've ever seen it used in American English.

The dictionary definitions of the word include the political party believing in freedom from most government, and the philosophical belief in free will.

On topic, I think the chaotic neutral Baldur's Gate characters, including Neera, are very good representations of the alignment. I see chaotic neutral as meaning "whimsical and impulsive, with no particular ambition or ideals."

Good-aligned people would often go further, and say "undependable and unreliable, refusing to commit to anything, no interest in helping others, very untrustworthy, untrue to their word." Evil-aligned people would probably say "silly and unfocused, unlikely to be of use to my plans unless well-controlled with threat of punishment."