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Making the game more challenging: Avoiding Cheese:

Im not particularly fond of mods that increase difficulty, so i was hoping people would give me some insight as to how to avoid cheese in the game to make it more challenging. I know Everybody has their own definition of cheese so im hoping to get some feedback about what do people think is cheese and how to avoid it:

Here are a few of my ideas of what i think is cheese:

Preparing for a battle your pc didnt know was coming, preparing specific spells required for a battle that you didnt know would be required.
Line of sight abuse: in many ways
Dealing with a group of mobs one at a time (escaping so only one follows for example): With this i mean, you have to deal with the mobs all at once, the group being separated so you can easily pick them off sounds silly.
Exceeding summoning limits, having more than one planetar
Escaping demogorgon by going upstairs.. (so the prince of demons cant go up a stair??)

There are some specific spells that have some cheese involved (abusing AI) for example, if you cast web out of sight, since you do no damage, mobs dont attack, giving you time to cast several webs before cloudkill. I think this is cheese altogether and you should only cast web within sight.

Traps also have a lot of cheese. You know exactly where the mob will go and when? And as a personal option: A non magical trap can hurt mobs that are only hit with +3 weapons? For those reasons I dislike spike trap altogether.

In-out the room to cancel a spell cast is also cheese:

As an example: You go for the celestial fury fight. You could send a thief upstairs first but since the mage casts true sight or similar quite quickly, your toons would have to all go upstairs why? Staying downstairs means that probably some of the mobs involved wouldnt go down and you would have numerical advantage. So, the battle must be fought upstairs (most probably eating the trap). If your thief leaves upstairs before the mage casts his spell it would be an interrupt so you cant do that.

Clones using quickslot items: cheese (no more infinite scrolls of protect vs magic)

What about mislead using bard song? Cheese yes or no?





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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    The problem with discussions about "cheese" is that they always end up with fronts of polarized opinions. Not surprising since there's no clear definition of the term, or which mechanics fall under it.

    The game is inherently limited by being a scripted video game, and many of your examples are a consequence of that fact. To be fair though, your solution does seem the only feasible one: find your own, personal set of rules and play by them. There is little value in opening it to public discussion, you're only inviting controversy with very little constructive feedback.

    SharKurumi
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    @Cowled_wizard
    I find it odd you refuse using the spike trap because it is non magical, in a world where you can easily find/buy a lot of +3 daggers, bolts, arrows, spears short swords etc. such as ToB, it is easily explainable that your traps hits monsters immune to normal weapons.
    But i agree, traps are cheesy most of the time, i only use them when i plan on running away from an ennemy like drizzt or Sarevok and making him pass through the traps.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Lord_Tansheron I think if we refrain from criticizing other people's playstyles it's fine to throw around ideas for rules so people who want to play this way can pick and choose. We're all mature enough to handle a respectful discussion about cheese without flaming each other, right? Guys? Heh, okay, maybe not but I for one am interested in what other people have to say (if only to improve my cheesing skills) and reserve the right to bail at the first sign of fire.

    Anyways. @Cowled_wizard. Stuff that isn't intended behavior, like the quickslot thing, definitely. I'd probably avoid it even in a regular game myself as it just feels like bug abuse. I think limiting your use of rest is another good one. Realistically, you shouldn't be able to rest whenever you feel like and forcing yourself to conserve resources makes the game much more challenging. It also cuts down on the amount that you can abuse prebuffing (assuming that you sent in a scout first and therefore "legitimately" know the encounter is coming). And the biggest one, no-reload. Being able to reload as many times as you want makes it nearly impossible to lose unless you really screwed up so simply adding that condition will make things much harder. It will also force you to be honest about scouting encounters, if you're walking around and run into a mind flayer group by accident you can't just restore and start buffing.

    I agree that changing rooms in a fight is pretty cheesy; ideally you should be able to run in and out and the enemies would react appropriately but even with SCS the AI is dumb about it. Invisibility is another one that the AI just can't handle. But you should be careful not to eliminate too many things or you might feel like you don't have any tactical options left. I would start by asking yourself what kind of playstyle you want and then build your rules from there. Alternatively, roleplaying it will cut out a lot of cheese automatically simply because it's unrealistic for your character to do. But do it properly, don't spend all your time thinking up justifications for your character to cheese :p

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    @nano , thanks for the advice: though to be honest, some fights, without knowing what is coming beforehand are very very difficult (twisted rune) , specially in BG2EE where, i suposse, the staff of magi does give prot evil.

    One of the things about line of sight poor AI is that it happens even without trying. Lets say you meet the adventurers in the sewers, and you pull your scout back, their tanks will go after you but their cleric who was casting a buff might not. The only way to make it fair is to actual stay in line of sight with all the evil party.
    And even worse: They target your first pc on sight, which makes Viconia the ideal scout (65rm to start with).

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Cowled_wizard. The problem with feigning ignorance is that you're never going to capture the same feeling of being truly ignorant, so whatever you do is always going to be shaped by prior knowledge to some extent. That's why I prefer to apply rules to actions (say, no reloads or no resting in a dungeon) rather than thoughts (no prior knowledge). Plus it makes for a better playthrough in my opinion when you can flex your strategic muscles instead of always holding back.

    Second situation: I say it's their own fault for ditching their cleric, just kill them as they come. You seem to have a very different view of "fair" than I do :p These aren't historical battles where both sides line up and charge at each other, this is a sewer skirmish and if they break formation then teach 'em a lesson in tactics with your blade. Then again, I'm more of a thief than a paladin so I tend to disregard silly outdated concepts such as "honor". Sounds like you're the opposite so you should use your own judgment in this case.

    I don't know if you use SCS though, that sort of problem doesn't crop up as often with the mod. For the best experience I'd recommend combining both mods and restrictions, because there's only so much you can do to limit yourself against the AI before it feels like you're handicapping yourself, and conversely there's only so much mods can do without making it feel like they're cheating.

  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    edited October 2013
    Arcane spellcasting is by far the cheesiest thing in BG games. Yes, even worse than any fog of war exploits or area switching.
    Don't use it, and the game instantly becomes more fun.

    It really irks me when some people bitch and moan about things like potential abuse of traps etc., or other minor things that aren't 100% in line with their precious paper D&D, to the point where developers decide to nerf it or "fix" something that doesn't really need to be fixed if you see the big picture.
    And yet we still have stuff like sorcerers not needing any INT or CHA whatsoever, or mages being better at fighting than fighters because they have a multitude of ways to take zero damage with no drawbacks.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Play a poverty no reload no level up solo run. With a monk. Have fun!

    EudaemoniumJuliusBorisovWolkBrude
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292

    Arcane spellcasting is by far the cheesiest thing in BG games. Yes, even worse than any fog of war exploits or area switching.
    Don't use it, and the game instantly becomes more fun.

    It really irks me when some people bitch and moan about things like potential abuse of traps etc., or other minor things that aren't 100% in line with their precious paper D&D, to the point where developers decide to nerf it or "fix" something that doesn't really need to be fixed if you see the big picture.
    And yet we still have stuff like sorcerers not needing any INT or CHA whatsoever, or mages being better at fighting than fighters because they have a multitude of ways to take zero damage with no drawbacks.

    Actually, this is actually one of the things I like about D&D. Arcane spell casting is more powerful because it SHOULD be. Seriously, what is more powerful: being able to swing a sword really well, or being able to stop time, throw fireballs, and control the minds of others? The answer is rather obvious, and the game mechanics reflect that for the most part instead of trying to "balance" it artificially.

    elminsterWilburKurumiJonelethIrenicus
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    You could always just forgo the more powerful but not outright cheesy items. Skip the wands of paralyzation, monster summoning and fire. Don't use the Robe of Vecna or Amulet of Power. Say no to potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning.

    Similarly try playing with a druid as your sole divine caster to cut down on your buffs, or with an Invoker as your only mage to miss the great enchantment/charm spells ingame.

    I wouldn't necessarily call using the above items or using a cleric or other mage cheesy or cheating, but they can make the game easier.

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Corvino said:

    You could always just forgo the more powerful but not outright cheesy items. Skip the wands of paralyzation, monster summoning and fire. Don't use the Robe of Vecna or Amulet of Power. Say no to potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning.

    Similarly try playing with a druid as your sole divine caster to cut down on your buffs, or with an Invoker as your only mage to miss the great enchantment/charm spells ingame.

    I wouldn't necessarily call using the above items or using a cleric or other mage cheesy or cheating, but they can make the game easier.

    I've thought about that, potions of explotions, or arrows of explosions .
    I do want to use robe of vecna but i have been thinking about not using any HLA.

    The problem with the cleric or mage in the sewers is their target was their comrades, after buffing, their comrades and pcs are out of sight so, often they just sit there doing nothing. Its not a choice, it is an AI deficiency. I dont want to fight them in their line of sight because i want to RP a paladin but because i think it makes the game more interesting like that.

    Ive also thought about limiting rest. For example, having to deal with Darnise keep without rest seems interesting.

  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    I'm trying to break my addiction to magic missile and fireball by refusing to memorize those spells (or use similar wands). That will force me to practice with other spells.

    I'm also thinking of only memorizing one of each type of spell to force better strategy in battle. I have to think about it first. I don't know if I can survive with only one haste per day. Also, resting often would reduce the challenge.

    jackjack
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Having tried the one of each type of spell thing myself, I can safely say that it has the potential to drive you crazy, but it is fun to have an array of different effects at your disposal.

    XerxesVlolien
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,205
    edited October 2013
    Sorry I can't avoid the cheese. It just tastes too good for that. Mmm...Borgonzola. :p

    KamigoroshiJuliusBorisovlolien
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    One of the fights I usually find hardest is one of the demon fights in Watchers Keep. It's the one just after the anti magic room which means no pre-buffing. But because of this I also find it to be one of the most enjoyable fights.

    So I think for my next playthrough I'm going to avoid ever preparing for a fight. So no pre-buffing. No preparing encounter appropriate spells. No contingencies or spell triggers.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I suppose you could limit buffs to your general longlasting "I'm in a dungeon, so it's up" buffs like prot from evil 10' radius and remove fear. Anything else needs to be cast with hostile enemies in sight.

  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    XerxesV said:

    I'm trying to break my addiction to magic missile and fireball by refusing to memorize those spells (or use similar wands). That will force me to practice with other spells.

    I'm also thinking of only memorizing one of each type of spell to force better strategy in battle. I have to think about it first. I don't know if I can survive with only one haste per day. Also, resting often would reduce the challenge.

    Why waste slots on MM?
    2/3 of bg1 Sleep is THE spell.
    Note. Sleep wont make the game more challenging, quite the opposite.

    KidCarnivalQuartzPantalion
  • FelspawnFelspawn Member Posts: 161
    Ygramul said:

    This is the one cheese I avoid using for a challenge:

    Power Word: Reload

    thats pretty much it in a nutshell. If you play a game, no reloading on a bad level up HP roll , no reloading when your spell was saved on, You somehow got Dorn killed? tough, keep on playing. Definitely makes things more challenging

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    ^And also more interesting.

    nano
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    ^And also more interesting.

    ^^ highly subjective.

    Quartz
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    So is challenge, so what's your point?

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    For a long time, bg has needed an Iron man option.

    Wilbur
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    ajwz said:

    For a long time, bg has needed an Iron man option.

    Anyone made a feature request yet?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    I don't think it'd work as a feature, not without constant auto-saving on the fly. It's fine where it is, a personal challenge and a personal choice.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Isn't it already a feature? Just don't reload.

  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    edited October 2013
    nano said:

    Isn't it already a feature? Just don't reload.

    That is not an iron man feature. I know anyone can refrain from reloading, but it's not the same thing.

    Edit. Well it's not for me anyway. Never played a no reload game and probably never will.

  • zerckanzerckan Member Posts: 178
    edited October 2013
    No reload with core rules is so much fun.
    When i see a companion cut to pieces i'm like:

    Quartz
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    nano said:

    @Wilbur
    What's the difference?

    Maybe it's just in my head. Lets keep it at that.

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