Rethinking making the PC my party leader

Kneller

I'm taking a run through with a Cav as I like the specials, he has naturally good Cha, and is a pretty solid tank. However, in being a tank, he's also the first in line to get the sh*t kicked out of him in a tough fight. This hasn't been fun to watch. So, I'm thinking of restarting the run with a more defensive tact and letting someone else be BG's punching bag. I'm running with a canon party and taking this character through BG2, so that means I'll have

BG1: Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir
BG2: Yoshi>Imoen, Jah, Minsc

For BG1, I do dual Imoen at level 7 (for continuity in BG2). When that happens, I send Dynaheir to pay a visit to good ol' Firebead then pick up Safana until Imoen catches up. For BG1, I'm guessing that Minsc is the best contender for tank once he gets the gauntlets of dex. Jah has good Con, but medicore everything else. And, she is the healer after, all. Then, there's Khalid, but he makes a much better archer.

For BG2, I'm going to make a few changes. I will eventually be picking up Jan (one of my favorite characters) as a permanent party member. However, I'm going to change him from an illusionist/thief to a wild mage/thief. He's got the personality to pull it off. Also, after I pick up Imoen from Spellhold, she's going to find that the combination of her experiences with Irenicus and the Cowled Wizards have turned her into a straight up sorcerer (ala Shadowkeeper). We'll blame the loss of the thief levels on PTSD. Either that or I'd tweak her stats and turn her into a cleric of Lathander (being locked up made her go born-again? hey, it happens all the time.) Though, I wish Ilmater was an option. It would be much more appropriate. Maybe I'll grab divine remix from G3.

So. the question is, what is the PC to be (single-classed) and why? I can see this group getting some use out of another tank, but I'm tired of my PC being on the front line. I want him to have a prominent role, but from a distance, in this group.

jackjack

I lean toward playing bards, and as such, I'm no front liner - for this reason I love the pentagonal formation that places the PC in the middle. My tank is always 2nd-in-command, and at the head of the party.

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Corvino

Any kind of cleric goes well with the Canon party to supplement Jaheira's druidic spells.

If you want a tank who doesn't get hit then perhaps a Blade or Fighter/mage is the answer. Once you get mirror image and stoneskin nothing's going to land much of a hit on you.

FinneousPJ

I like Fighter 3 -> Mage which is practically a single classed mage with some fighter benefits for free

My build was

*** Longbow
** Single Weapon Style

at Fighter 3, then put **** in Longbow when you reach Mage 6.

Corvino

@FinneousPJ Why 2 pips in Single Weapon Style with no melee weapon proficiency?

FinneousPJ

AC bonus when switching to melee.

Kneller

thespace said:

Yeah Bard makes for a good back of the line leader. An Archer, if you still wanna have the most kills but hang back, could be a good way to go.

I don't really see a Bard as being a prominent figure in a group. They're great for support, but they will never be great at combat. Even the blade's spins and tenser's is a partial catch up.

Is the Archer still strong in BG2?

Corvino said:

Any kind of cleric goes well with the Canon party to supplement Jaheira's druidic spells.

Yeah, I definitely want a cleric in this mix, but that's also more of a support role to me. This has me leaning towards making Imoen the cleric and have the PC take on the sorcerer role. I figure that Lathander is the proper choice of the core three as he's the god of renewal which is most appropriate of Imoen's situation. So, for BG2, that would mean:

Minsc (front line)
Jah (starting healer/backup tank)
Yoshi (thief/archer?)>Imoen (healer)
Jan (thief/wild mage)
PC (sorcerer)

This party could definitely use another meat shield. I'm thinking Keldorn would be solid for a good party. Though, Sarevok (eventually) is tempting for storyline purposes. Actually, I'm probably better off holding off on both Keldorn and Jan until I'm ready to leave for Spellhold. Instead working with the core 4, taking on NPCs for their quests, then grabbing Keldorn/Jan afterward. How does this sound? Or, am I doing too much content in the city before going for Imoen?

Eudaemonium

Well, you have to remember that Yoshimo goes the way of the dodo and that his experience doesn't transfer to Imoen, and thus by leaving her for later you might be unintentionally nerfing her. If you're planning on changing classes and 'Keeping in the XP difference, though, it shouldn't matter much and is really just down to preference. Its plausible that you might burn out doing most of everything in Chapter 2-3, but it also helps to have a fat gold and magical item stockpile for the Underdark.

Corvino

Jaheira is actually one of the better tanks in BG2. Ironskins make her very durable. You can even build her into a pretty nasty dual-wielder putting 2 pips into dual wield at fighter 9 and 12 and going Belm offhand, Blackblood (club +3 +acid) mainhand. Without the Dex buff and spells she gets in BG2 she's less useful frontline in BG1 though.

Minsc and Jaheira together in BG2 is most of your tanking needs covered.

LordRumfish

In Baldur's Gate 1, Khalid is the 2nd best tank in the game (after Kagain).

He's guaranteed to get some HP, his Dex score is decent, he has enough Strength to bear a large shield. I'm not saying Minsc can't do the job, but Minsc works best with two-handed swords and a composite longbow. Khalid works well as a tank. In the long run he is competent at melee even though he's not amazing just because he can keep specializing.

If you're tired of your cavalier getting roughed up, why not alter the party marching order? One selection puts the leader in the center of the party, I think.

Corvino

Going back to the original topic, Paladins can self-buff with Protection from Evil which actually gives you a flat +2AC bonus against every enemy in the game as well as a flat +2 saves bonus. The game doesn't check which foes are evil, so it applies to everyone. This will make your Cavalier a good deal less squishy early on.

Kneller

Corvino said:

Jaheira is actually one of the better tanks in BG2. You can even build her into a pretty nasty dual-wielder...

I thought about that, but ended up going the two-handed route. Right now she's Staff++, Sling++, 2H+, Spear+. After the next pip in spear, I'll really only have one-handers left for her, but will probably be thinking more sword and board (when the situation calls for it) at that point.

LordRumfish said:

If you're tired of your cavalier getting roughed up, why not alter the party marching order? One selection puts the leader in the center of the party, I think.

The PC kinda has to go first. He's a Cav, so if he's not tanking, he'll just be standing there possibly chucking axes. With this party, he's the best person for the job.

Corvino said:

Going back to the original topic, Paladins can self-buff with Protection from Evil...

I use this quite a bit. You get so many castings of it, I figure I might as well use it before any fight where the enemies hit on anything more than a crit.

Corvino said:

Going back to the original topic...

All this being said, I'm leaning towards using Minsc for my tanking needs with Jah on backup. I guess I'll SK Imoen into a Cleric of Lathander (so I eventually have a cleric), Jan to Wild Mage, which would leave the Sorcerer role for the PC. It'll keep the party small, but have all our bases covered. I'm a little concerned about having Jah both as healer and backup fighter. I don't know if 1/2 of a druid is enough to cover a whole party (especially considering she'll be buffing herself, too).

the_spyder

That doesn't seem to be a very 'Cavalier' attitude, to let others be cannon fodder.

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ChildofBhaal599

i prefer being in the thick of battle. it always feels right for my character to be in the front, in leader positions, first one into the battle. it didn't feel right that i had to keep him back in the beginning this time because he was a fighter/thief this game, but i got him up to the front when i had items like shadow armor and other things to help him out there. that just how i play though, so if you want to be back there are other competant tanks, but a cavalier should be really good and there is no npc for you to get another.

the_spyder

I generally play a Wizard in my run-throughs. Even then, I still have him as party leader in the primary position. It is possible to do, while still keeping him out of combat. Once any combat or dialogue ending in combat starts, I simply pause (it is auto-paused) and instruct my fighter types to swarm ahead while my wizard casts spells. Effectively the front rank advances to protect the party leader. There is also at least one formation that automatically protect the leader.

Also, I generally have a scout/thief reconning such that I know when and where combat is going to happen. Thus, my fighters are at the ready, even if my wizard is in Pole Position.

On the flip side, my current play through has a Half-orc fighter/thief and he loves wading neck deep in his enemies blood, ahem... I mean combat. So I have no problem with him in the lead.

nano

LordRumfish said:

In Baldur's Gate 1, Khalid is the 2nd best tank in the game (after Kagain).

Khalid? He's okay, but 2nd best is pushing it. I'd take Yeslick over him myself.

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nano said:

LordRumfish said:

In Baldur's Gate 1, Khalid is the 2nd best tank in the game (after Kagain).

Khalid? He's okay, but 2nd best is pushing it. I'd take Yeslick over him myself.

Khalid is the best tank who doesn't need the Gauntlets of Dexterity to be a good tank. Ajantis, Yeslick, and Kagain are all arguably better, but only with the Gauntlets. In my last run I had Khalid and Ajantis and rotated their positions based on current HP.

nano

Well, someone has to wear the Gauntlets...

They're not in high demand in my opinion. Actually, in my last game I didn't even have anyone who wanted them so they sat in the bottom of my pack the whole time.

Eudaemonium

In my last game I gave them to Edwin, because nobody else really needed them and he could do with the extra AC XD

the_spyder

My current party has Dorn, Kagain and Shar-Teel. Admittedly, Shar-Teel is better as an archer, I'd still list her as a pretty good tank.

As for 'Best tank', I'd think that it would go:

Dorn
Minsc
Kagain
Then Khalid

reason being, although Dorn doesn't have the best hit points, he hits pretty hard. As does Minsc. Now, if someone had said "Meat shield" instead of Tank, it might be a different order.

Kneller

Well, I'm trying to do the best I can with the canon party. There's no terribly good tank. Jah's stats are mediocre (you can either gauntlet up her Str or Dex, and her weapon choices are really limited), Khalid is the same way, and Minsc has low Con (keep in mind that the difference between 15 and 18 Con is about a 25% difference in HP. This changes in BG2, though. Minsc gets an extra point in Con and Jah's stats get a boost, too.

The thing that gets me is that what the canon party really needs is a dedicated cleric. But, the literary paradox of the story's protagonist taking a supporting role just gives me a headache. Hence, I'm using Shadowkeeper to adjust things a bit and switch Imoen after spellhold. But, that brings us back to my last question. That is, with this party:

Minsc (tank, TWF with Flails and Long Swords)
Jah (healer and backup tank, 2H weapons)
Yoshi (archer?)>Imoen (SK to single classed cleric of Lathander after Spellhold)
Jan (SK to thief/wild mage)
PC (sorcerer, I assume)

Will I fare all that well without a cleric/healer (only 1/2 a druid who will likely be buffing a lot) until I get Imoen? Also, I'd like to go for Imoen ASAP. How soon do you think I can viably head to spellhold using this party? And, is there particular gear I should make sure to have for them before I go?

Corvino

I'm currently running with the canon party and a swashbuckler (who will dual to mage in BG2). The loss of cleric spells is a bit of a pain but manageable.

You could consider a fighter/cleric dual or multi for your main character. Dwarf or Half-Orc fighter clerics hit very, very hard and are pretty bloody resilient.That would also cover your healing & buffing needs. Though to be honest at BG2 levels a Cavalier and Minsc between them get enough castings of bless, cure light wounds, chant etc to cover a lot of bread-and-butter cleric stuff. By the end of SOA your Cavalier will be able to cast DUHM, Negative Plane Protection and even Lesser Restoration.

Eudaemonium

the_spyder said:

My current party has Dorn, Kagain and Shar-Teel. Admittedly, Shar-Teel is better as an archer, I'd still list her as a pretty good tank.

As for 'Best tank', I'd think that it would go:

Dorn
Minsc
Kagain
Then Khalid

reason being, although Dorn doesn't have the best hit points, he hits pretty hard. As does Minsc. Now, if someone had said "Meat shield" instead of Tank, it might be a different order.

I thought the name 'Tank' basically implied 'Meat Shield'. The role of the Tank is to soak up damage and aggro, not necessarily deal it (which is the role of DPS characters).

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Eudaemonium said:

the_spyder said:

My current party has Dorn, Kagain and Shar-Teel. Admittedly, Shar-Teel is better as an archer, I'd still list her as a pretty good tank.

As for 'Best tank', I'd think that it would go:

Dorn
Minsc
Kagain
Then Khalid

reason being, although Dorn doesn't have the best hit points, he hits pretty hard. As does Minsc. Now, if someone had said "Meat shield" instead of Tank, it might be a different order.

I thought the name 'Tank' basically implied 'Meat Shield'. The role of the Tank is to soak up damage and aggro, not necessarily deal it (which is the role of DPS characters).

This is how I usually use the term. Granted, those two roles tend to overlap in BG since Fighters have both the best armor and the best damage throughput, but a lot of NPCs in BG1 don't quite have the stats to do both really well. Dorn and Minsc, for example, have great strength but a little less Con and Dex than I like to have in a "tank."

Kneller

Corvino said:

I'm currently running with the canon party and a swashbuckler (who will dual to mage in BG2). The loss of cleric spells is a bit of a pain but manageable.

You could consider a fighter/cleric dual or multi for your main character. Dwarf or Half-Orc fighter clerics hit very, very hard and are pretty bloody resilient.That would also cover your healing & buffing needs. Though to be honest at BG2 levels a Cavalier and Minsc between them get enough castings of bless, cure light wounds, chant etc to cover a lot of bread-and-butter cleric stuff. By the end of SOA your Cavalier will be able to cast DUHM, Negative Plane Protection and even Lesser Restoration.

I really want to like clerics more than I do. I think they're great in 3e, but in 2e they just fall short. And sure, the Cav will eventually get NPP, but not in the beginning of BG2 when I'm dealing with vamps left and right. Warriors and Wizards rule the day in this game, everyone else is just second rate, sad to say.

I'm pretty far along with my Cav, though. I don't want to start over. So, I think I'll make Immy the Sorc instead, then pick up a Cleric, probably Vicky. However, I think this creates another problem. With a party of PC, Minsc, Jah, Vicky, Yohsi/Imoen, Jan, I have no room for NPC quests. I think the only way around this is if I were to take Vicky or Jan's place. Then, I'll have that empty slot, and can throw in someone like Keldorn later (for the DA), but then I lose my Cav. I keep going in circles.

nano

Agreed, though I look for saves as well as HP so I prefer shorties like Kagain, Monty and Yeslick over Khalid. In any case, I think a pure tank role is fairly ineffective. For example, although Kagain can take the most punishment I find him to be spectacularly useless in general.

Corvino

Once you get the amulet of power (available pretty early really) then giving it to one of your tanks should be enough to trump any vampires you come across. They're including the BG2 fixpack, so it should be useable by your Cavalier.

Kneller

@nano That's one of the reasons I like the paly. When their saves max out, with a ring of protection or the like, they are practically magic immune.

@Corvino yeah, tbh, I'm not too worried about the level drain. What worries me more is the long trip to Spellhold. With a cleric, we merely need to survive encounters and s/he can patch folks up. Without one, it's definitely more of a struggle.

How does one even use a cleric? Put some *'s and two weapon fighting so they can dual wield pom-poms while they cheer on the rest of the party that's doing the real work? :P

Time4Tiddy

If you use a cleric of Lathander with Quarterstaff and Two-handed prof you can deal out some nasty damage. You'll never be a fighter, but you can get a 19 str off the tome and you can cast a crapton of self-buffing spells.