Elf Fighter/Thief - Duel wield or Single weapon?

[Deleted User]

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FinneousPJ

If you continue to BG2EE dual wield is superb but for BGEE both will work.

EntropyXII

I'm a big fan of the 'duelist' style. Just looks better in my head.

ChildofBhaal599

single weapon is easier to switch to a bow as well, which is extremely useful early on. also the crits and ac as mentioned.

GoodSteve

It's really up to personal preference unless you're looking for "the best option for maximum damage output" then it would be dual wield. I voted single-weapon style because that's what I would do, because I hate having to go into the inventory screen to equip/unequip weapons when changing from a 2h ranged weapon to dual wielding.

FinneousPJ

GoodSteve said:

It's really up to personal preference unless you're looking for "the best option for maximum damage output" then it would be dual wield. I voted single-weapon style because that's what I would do, because I hate having to go into the inventory screen to equip/unequip weapons when changing from a 2h ranged weapon to dual wielding.

That's a good point but the problem is SWS bonuses don't scale, unlike shields and off hand weapons.

EDIT: As I said though, it's fine for BGEE but begins to lag behind a lot in BG2.

ChildofBhaal599

FinneousPJ said:

GoodSteve said:

It's really up to personal preference unless you're looking for "the best option for maximum damage output" then it would be dual wield. I voted single-weapon style because that's what I would do, because I hate having to go into the inventory screen to equip/unequip weapons when changing from a 2h ranged weapon to dual wielding.

That's a good point but the problem is SWS bonuses don't scale, unlike shields and off hand weapons.

EDIT: As I said though, it's fine for BGEE but begins to lag behind a lot in BG2.

then that's it. start with single weapon to switch around with bow while you are still low on ac making you squishy up front. going into bg2 get dual weapons now that you have higher ac leather armors and could handle being more up close and personal.

FinneousPJ

Of course if the purpose of the character is to focus on ranged combat, losing dual wield bonuses isn't a big deal in either game,

Corvino

Depends what you use them for. If they're mainly for backstabs then SWS, if they tend to stick around in melee the dual-wield all the way. I actually used my recent fighter/thief multi as a tank a fair amount as my group was pretty melee-light and putting on some plate gave him better AC and HP than my regular tanks.

I'd second @FinneousPJ that dual-wield is quite a bit better once BG2:EE rolls around. Getting access to Kundane or Belm does tip the balance.

Schneidend

I love backstabs, and I love Sneak Attack in 3E and beyond. Crit backstabs are even better.

Lord_Tansheron

The crit increase is minor and random, dual-wield is far superior. Even without "abusing" APR weapons, there are plenty of weapons with handy immunities or other buffs that more than make up for an extra 5% crit. Plus, critical backstabs are often wasted anyway, since even a non-crit backstab can kill things in a single hit.

nano

More swords > less swords. I would wear swords in every slot if I could.

Silence

You can easily do both weapon styles, and you may want to do this. There are advantages to this approach: SWS is better for backstab, while DW is better for standard combat.

At level 1, pick your favourite weapon (e.g. longsword). Spend two pips on that weapon, and then a further two pips in DW. Later, at level 3, you could spend 1 pip on SWS. You now have both styles and an awesome weapon type! At levels 6 and 9, spend your pips on a new weapon for use in BG2 (e.g. katana). Thus, by level 9 - very early in BG2 - you would be specialized in two weapons and have both weapon styles.

If you use this approach, I wouldn't recommend putting more than 2 pips in DW or 1 pip in SWS, due to diminishing returns.

doomdoomdoom

1 pip in single weapon style at fighter L3 makes sense, given your starting proficiencies. It's good value and would be more useful in BG1, and even in BG2 if your FT play style is mostly ranged+backstab.
Second pip into SW style would be a waste though.

Dual wield reigns supreme in SoA, although in ToB once you have enough GWWs to last through a couple of fights, the advantages are diminished, and certain 2h weapons become superior.

My point is, you can eventually have both if want.

And you shouldn't be dual wielding in BG1 even if you put both L3 and L6 points into it anyway. You really need all 3 pips to be effective, especially early on - when your thac0 is bad to begin with, you can't afford to have penalty on your main hand. So that would mostly be investment into the future - for earlier dual-wielding in BG2.

For anyone who might say that putting points into multiple weapon styles is a waste, I say that since as MC fighter you can only specialize in specific weapons, you'll have plenty of proficiency points to go around if you continue into BG2.
12 total to be exact, which is enough for 3 pips into dual wield, 8 to specialize in 4 different weapons, and 1 more into whatever. Which might as well be SWS, unless you're into that whole "backstabbing with a staff" or "using paladin uber-weapons as a thief" thing, in which case it'd obviously better be two-handed weapon style.

FinneousPJ

@doomdoomdoom Great plan.

Corvino

You can dual wield pretty effectively with 2 pips in TWF, which is enough to negate mainhand penalties. THAC0 improves pretty rapidly for CHARNAME if you're factoring in exceptional strength, specialisation, gauntlets of weapon expertise and weapon enchantment bonuses. Your offhand is still going to hit hard when it does hit even with -4 THAC0.

I typically choose GWW for 2-hander specialists, but Critical Strike can be more effective for dual-wielders. If you use a speed weapon in your offhand it's possible to have 9-10 APR on your CHARNAME or several NPCs with Improved Haste active. At this point ensuring that every hit is a natural 20 outweighs additional attacks.

Silence

@doomdoomdoom: While I like the rest of your post, I disagree that you need all the pips in DW to be effective.

The first two pips reduce your penalties to -0/-4. So even with two pips, your primary attack is unaffected and you get a free offhand attack at -4. The third pip only reduces the offhand penalty -2, which in my mind is not a huge benefit. You only get 1 attack with the off-hand. That said, DW is great even at level 1. It's basically a free attack in place of a shield.

I don't think your THAC0 will be horrible at early levels. If you're a fighter with high exceptional strength and level 3+, the offhand penalty is pretty much negligible. To further improve THAC0, there's also other spells (Draw Upon Holy Might) and equipment accessories (Gauntlets of Weapon Skill/Specialization).

jhneoh

Dual wield pulls far ahead in BG2.

A Fighter/Thief could be using Foebane+5 mainhand and Scarlet Ninja-To offhand by the end of ToB.

ZanathKariashi

2hd AND 2 weapon.

* 2hd style for double crit chance for when you open with a SoS/SotR BS

*** two weapon for everything else.

(you're going to have to go into the inventory either way, so might as well go for the big guns).


Single weapon really has no purpose, since the best BS weapons in both games are staffs (and you can buy a Staff +3 at the beginning of the game if you really want to).

Elendar

I'd say start out in BGEE doing single weapon style while slowly working towards dual-wielding as you level up. Either towards the end of BGEE or when you start BG2EE, switch to dual-wielding.

doomdoomdoom

@Silence
Yeah, you're right about DW penalties of course, the main hand only has penalty with 1 pip and so off-hand attack is essentially free after 2 pips. That was a brain fart on my part.

I still think -4 penalty is no small thing though, so even if it's "free" it's not really doing much. From my experience, even Kensai routinely misses main hand attacks early in BG2 (and that's with a +3 kit bonus on top of grandmastery bonus, none of which F/T gets), let alone off-hand with a penalty... in BG1.
But hey, at least the animation looks awesome, even if the actual accomplishments behind it aren't that impressive

That and considering how good ranged is at low levels and the added nuisance of manually switching between ranged weapon and two weapons (which is my biggest disappointment with these so called "enhanced" editions, that they couldn't even be bothered to add a more reasonable weapon swap like in IWD2, although that's off-topic) makes me not so fond of early dual wielding.
With that said, there's definitely nothing wrong with investing in it early if you plan to use it a lot in BG2.

[Deleted User]

-4 penalty is not necessarily a small thing, but an extra attack at -4 is, in nearly all cases, better than a 5% additional chance to crit. Think of it this way, a crit does double damage, so it's effectively a bonus attack; so SWS gives you a 5% chance to score an extra hit. Even if the -4 penalty for DW drops your off-hand chance to hit down to 10%, that's still twice as likely to give you an extra hit's worth of damage than DW.

Mind you, that above analysis assumes you only have one main hand attack (and aptly demonstrates why DW is so good for non-fighters who can get it). Extra attacks does help SWS a bit, but a Fighter's rapidly improving THAC0 helps DW even more. A 7th level Fighter with specialization ekes a ~10% chance for an extra "hit" out of SWS, but by that point likely has a much better chance of hitting with the offhand while dual-wielding.

That all says nothing for convenience, though. On my last run through BGEE, I played a Blade and spent most of the game using a long bow, because I could get much better results out of firing Acid Arrows with the Long Bow of Marksmanship than any melee style, and when I had to switch to melee I didn't always take the time to put something in the off-hand. On the other hand, once I got the Tome of Strength and Stoneskin, I started using melee more as a primary tactic and put dual-wielding to use.

As others have pointed out, there's nothing stopping you from having SWS and DW for backstabbing and general combat, respectively, but an extra 5% critical chance may not be worth the inconvenience of having to go into your inventory before and after every backstab.