Why did nobody like ToB anyway? (-SPOILERS-)
Ward
Member Posts: 1,305
I've heard talk ever since I came here a few months ago that ToB was very disappointing in the end.
But I actually enjoyed it a lot. It was very short but I thought it was fantastic but I never bothered asking why nobody fancied it.
It should be noted I haven't used Ascension before so I'm probably missing out.
But I actually enjoyed it a lot. It was very short but I thought it was fantastic but I never bothered asking why nobody fancied it.
It should be noted I haven't used Ascension before so I'm probably missing out.
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Comments
A little bit short but it's a very good ending.
And the Watcher's Keep is a great dungeon ! I don't why "suppsoed" fan call Tob a "disaster"
Did you not know? All those things are industry standard these days. Ha. Ha.
Can you be more specific though? What sort of things drove you away, because I seem to have missed a lot of those plot holes. Now that I think about it, all those LONG talks with the Solar in the pocket plane, there is every opportunity for mistakes.
@Seldar
The Watcher's Keep is playable in SoA as well, but I get the feeling it WASN'T originally. Am I correct?
The dialogues with the Solar were also interesting, because up until ToB no one ever really talked about what it meant to be a Bhaalspawn, what Bhaal's plan was originally meant to be, etc. It's the first time in the saga where the antagonist is directly targeting you, as opposed to you just being a wrench in their schemes: Sarevok wasn't after you exclusively, his main agenda was the Iron Throne plot, and Irenicus only sees you as a tool for his revenge.
its biggest flaw being that it just wasnt as good as the those that came before it.
On the upside, ToB gave us the tab key and WK and, uh... well, how 'bout that tab key!
Having said that, I too think WK is awesome, but it stands out so much from the rest of ToB that it doesn't exactly feel part of it.
- BG1 (TotSC): You don't know what's going on, then you find out you're a Bhaalspawn and your brother is hunting you because of this. Long play.
- BG2 SoA: A dude kidnapped you because you're a Bhaalspawn, then you find out the guy was merely some 'outsider' that has nothing to do with Bhaal, that was interested in your power because he's seeking revenge. Long play.
- BG2 ToB: Finally it's all about the Bhaalspawns. All of it. Short play. Wait... what???
I think that's what made ToB a bit poorer compared to the other predecessors. Granted, I like them all, but while SoA, that has little to do with the Bhaalspawn business which is a long standalone game, ToB is all about the whole issue, but came out as a short EP (and does feel like one) with a grand finale bundled with it.
Summing it up, that's how I see ToB (just my opinion):
I enjoyed Chapter 8. I liked there are some other guys out there that, like Sarevok, were after you. The story that brought you to *try* your best (because let's face it: you're powerful, but you're not almighty) to save Saradush ended up being surprising and tragic, and that gave more value to the story (especially if you're a good-aligned character). Also, the Yaga-Shura battle was simply epic to me. Some mindless hack-n-slash in Saradush (kill guards, kill more guards, kill even more guards), but other than that it was pretty good.
Chapter 9 was downright boring and redundant at best. There are some other evil Bhaalspawns here and here. Yeah, no problem. You storm their lairs like piece of cake. Slash and cut here and there. Everyone falls before your might. Finally you battle with the Bhaalspawn on duty, which is probably the only challenging part, but as for the rest... meh.
Chapter 10, logically, was the final battle, but unlike the Temple of Bhaal under Baldur's Gate and Hell in BG2, it didn't feel that scary or dangerous, but that's just me. The Ascension mod helped a little, but whatever. The finale was great, though.
The whole lot, bundled with some conveniently placed items that you could find even in a small village in the middle of nowhere. Heck, Amkethran had the most powerful items in all of Faerun, while in big cities like Baldur's Gate and Athkatla you find toys and trinkets compared. This is the recipe of what an EP is made of, and it's all over it. Watcher's Keep was OK, but I enjoyed more the dark, Diablo-like atmosphere of Durlag's Tower.
Little off topic:All-in all I´m more excited about BG2EE as the game has already depth and what it needs is more additional content, both SOA and TOB.
And when you got to the bottom of the tower, there was a demogorgon waiting for you. Why do I have a problem with this? Because he came rigth out of nowhere. To my recollection, there was absolutely no indication about that in the entire tower. I like being surprised, but a really good surprise requires a little bit of foreshadowing, some clues about the history. It's bad when you know from the start who the villain is (Mellissan, the 'Knighs' guarding the tower), but it's equally bad when the villain is... some random guy you've never seen or heard of before (Demogorgon).
Compare it to Durlag's tower, where you went in knowing some basic history about the place, and then kept finding clues that told you more and more about the tragic events that transpired there - and the story was something that you could relate to and feel horrified about it (one of my PCs was fairly traumatized by the experience, especially when he later went though almost the same hurdle in Candlekeep). Watcher's Keep story? Some dude battled a demon, won and locked him up. The End! Not the more exciting storytelling ever.
And the main questline of ToB was painfully linear. Most locations were locked until it was the time for you to go there, kill everything that moved, find a boss, kill a boss, rinse and repeat. No alternative. You had to do this. And after you were done you could never go back to that location again. And there was only one big quest line, sprinkled with some token mini quests of 'fetch this, kill that' variety. Oh, and almost every one you met/tried to help died, and some people would pop up blaming you for it and you had to kill them, 'cuz they wouldn't go away and there was no option to talk your way out or to prove you weren't 'guilty'.
Add to this the fact that you and your party were ridiculously overpowered at this point, which forced the game to throw even more overpowered opponents at you, which in turn gave me an impression that the whole world went through a steroid therapy while I wasn't looking. Weapons + 3 and +4 dropping off of every grunt, every common thief setting traps that would have dropped Mr. Firkraag in one round, every wizard having more power in their pinky than Kangaxx had in his entire skull, and so on and so forth - it made me kind of feel like all my previous achievements were worthless.
I think (and I say I think, 'cuz it's quite possible that I'm completely wrong and I wouldn't like it at all) that I'd find it more enjoyable if, instead of giving me ultra-high-level spells and abilities, the game instead gave me more slots for memorizing lower-level spells, faster attacks, better durability, etc, and then pitched me against enemies who weren't all that much more powerful, but more intelligent and better organized than the old ones, e.g., ones that could set an actual trap, and only showed up after I sprang it, so that my entire party was fighting poison-induced nausea and had lost 60% of HP before the first enemy appeared on screen. Or enemy who'd know how to use the terrain to their advantage. Or enemy who would NOT drop a handful of notes telling me exactly what his weakness was, and left a locker stock-full of weapons that could hurt him. (even BG2 was guilty of that one - honestly, what was Bohdi thinking, keeping wooden stakes on her night table? And the magic golems in ToB were a joke. Why put a new dangerous enemy in my path, and then make sure that I don't have to neither think nor prepare to fight them? What was the point?)
Ok, I think that rant went on for long enough. Those are my reasons for not being impressed with ToB. I don't hate it, but I don't particularly care for it either. I didn't play Ascension, which might have been a mistake, but I think that I'll wait for ToB:EE rather than play it now. :P
Felt really like something guys over at BioWare had some big surprise by the end of the saga. Luckily, they did provide a great ending eventually, but still there's something wrong that made me think: once you defeat Melissan and CHARNAME and Imoen decide to give up your divine essence the Deva says: "OK, it's done. Problem solved." Really? Was that simple? Oh yeah, thank goodness my enemy siblings (especially Yaga-Shura) destroyed all the other Bhaalspawns (who many of them weren't even evil) so all the essences are gathered here and I could give up mine, but hey, I got rid of this thing so it's OK.
I don't know. It kind of ridicules the feeling of despair I mentioned above that was all over the saga. A shame, really. Maybe I'm a little too picky on this one, but I was accustomed to something more... unpredictale while playing the two predecessors. A simple "it's done" sounded like BioWare said: "well, yeah, the game is done. Enjoy your life."
Looking back now it is especially good after playing through certain other Bioware games' endings!
Question is whether extensive and long side quests, wilderness wandering, Bring A to B for C, etc. etc. would have been more appropriate for the party's levels of experience and relevance.
But then again, you shouldn't listen to me, I gave The Phantom Menace a firm 3/5
It had a lot of great voice-acting, tons of party banter including between Sarevok and everyone else (those between Sarevok and Keldorn are especially good), you would cast ridiculously high level spells, you would summon elemental princes, all the time (which I love doing), and you really felt like someone famous and feared. Heck even Elminster was pretty much shitting his pants at my sight at that point.
WK is just one of if not the best dungeon crawl of the entire series (Durlag's Tower is a close contender).
Plus Ascension (which was semi-official) gave us the most epic battles of the series.
The one thing I disliked was the antagonist; Melissan isn't a convincing villain like Sarevok and Irenicus were; she doesn't seem to represent a threat until the very end of the game, where her exposition seems forced and out of place.
Greg Kasavin did a review of Throne of Bhaal I for some reason watched over and over: