On the necessity of opening doors (spoilers!)
urdjur
Member Posts: 53
Greetings Gators! I am planning a Candlekeep-to-Melissan playthrough (when bg2ee gets out), and I'm aiming for a no-reload, solo sorceror with poverty restriction (no magic items, not even scrolls). Naturally I thought that I would need Knock for my completionist ambitions and perhaps to even finish the saga itself, but now I'm not so sure.
1) First off, are there any locked doors/containers that MUST be opened to finish either game (bg1 or bg2), or will I simply miss out on items I still wouldn't use if I simply ignore locked stuff? Are there major side quests that become barred if you cannot open locks?
2) If the answer to 1 is yes, are there any doors of this kind in bg1 that cannot be forced with STR 21, and any in bg2 that cannot be forced with STR 25? If not, I could simply make use of DUHM and 18 starting strength, thus saving an important level 2 slot for more pressing concerns. AFAIK, DUHM has no level cap so STR 25 can be had at lvl 21 - quickly reached when soloing SoA.
Thanks in advance!
1) First off, are there any locked doors/containers that MUST be opened to finish either game (bg1 or bg2), or will I simply miss out on items I still wouldn't use if I simply ignore locked stuff? Are there major side quests that become barred if you cannot open locks?
2) If the answer to 1 is yes, are there any doors of this kind in bg1 that cannot be forced with STR 21, and any in bg2 that cannot be forced with STR 25? If not, I could simply make use of DUHM and 18 starting strength, thus saving an important level 2 slot for more pressing concerns. AFAIK, DUHM has no level cap so STR 25 can be had at lvl 21 - quickly reached when soloing SoA.
Thanks in advance!
1
Comments
Invisibility, Mirror Image and Resist Fear.
I've done the solo, poverty without the no-reload. I would suggest Contingency for one of your lvl 6 spells if you hadn't already planned on it. No Robe of Vecna made it essential for keeping my butt out of the fire. I had under 5 re-loads and ALL of them were from spell failure due to slow casting times.
Pro Petrification took the place of identify for me so i killed the basilisks. There are at least 2 traps in SoA that petrify, but if you know the proper school(alteration probably) Spell Immunity will get you past them.
I am almost positive I killed the werewolf with magic. I am certain the werewolf was my first and only re-load in bg1. My battery died in my mouse! Then after unpausing from that fiasco my haste had ran out and he interrupted my haste. Talking about going into a berserker rage! You got MMM right? The fire damage and magic damage should still get through, or does he have a PfMW type deal?
If i recall correctly though I pumped all my MAA into him then finished him off with MM and Skull Trap.
Hope that helps. BG1 is a chore for me akin to the in-laws coming to visit. I just grit my teeth and endure, so i am not the best person to give advice on the subject. At some point i will stop playing it entirely, but that feels like cheating.
I don't know exactly what "vow of poverty" you're using, but I have permitted myself the use of mundane weapons. I tried using no items at all and only spells (and my rabbit, lol) to kill enemies first, but it was too grindy even for my tastes. With 18 STR and 19 DEX, throwing daggers at 2 apr dealing 1d4+2 damage become a useful poor man's MMM during the early levels, and I seriously would not want to try the challenge without them. And the 18 STR is sort of necessary anyway to carry them all :P I won't be getting DUHM until later, but it's only later that it starts giving significant bonuses for forcing doors anyway so... Plus I don't even know if I'll need it. But it will make my throwing daggers hurt more
Good to know about the werewolf - that was my plan exactly: Pelting with MMM between castings of MM, MAA and Skull Trap. Every little should help. It seems we're picking very much the same spells. Would you mind posting your spell list?
As for 1st level spells, I've come to the conclusion that for a no-reload run, I really must start with Shield and Find Familiar. The hp bonus and AC bonus combined offers optimum survivability until I get my third pick at level 3. Also, the rabbit is a fast scout and can evade enemies by speed even before I get Invisibility - and it can help with kiting enemies that I can pick off with my throwing daggers.
I'm taking Magic Missile at level 3 or 5. It depends on a few things. First off, I want Pro:Evil for Summon Fiend (VIII) in SoA. If I'm importing the character, I'll need to take it at level 7 at the latest. Then again, since there is no provision in BG for reselecting spells later on (unlike PnP 3E), I might permit myself to use SK to change the spell selection when starting BG-II, much as if I had used a new Sorceror. The way I see it, importing a character from BG1 at least shouldn't penalize you as compared to starting a new character from scratch - especially if there's a PnP provision for it. If BG2:EE gets done right, imported sorcerors might even be offered spell reselection upon starting in SoA and in ToB - that would be great and a fitting implementation/compromise.
Anyway, if I take Pro:Evil in BG1, I'll only have one slot left and then I think Pro:Petri is the most crucial one to have. This however means I can't afford Blindness or Sleep at level 3. If I decide to do reselection in SoA, then definetely no Pro:Evil in BG1, in favor of Sleep or Blindness (which of the two debuffs would you pick in a SCS game?).
I think I already outlined my level 2 picks. Invisibility, Resist Fear and Mirror Image are mandatory as you say, though Emotion is a level 4 alternative to Resist Fear (however, level 4 picks are possibly even tighter than level 2 picks, so not really a solution). With Knock not being necessary, the final 2 slots is Web, MAA and/or Glitterdust. Invisibility detection early would be nice, especially if I'm not taking Blindness at level 1, but Web is a better long term combo with Spider Spawn and eventually Cloudkill. What do you think?
EDIT: Oh, as for traps, I'm contemplating Polymorph Self: Mustard Jelly (100% MR, immunity to missiles) combined with Stoneskin as a way to get past them once my rabbit has found them. This is hardly an option for BG1 as it would mean not getting Spider Spawn. I'm also not sure I'll be able to fit Poly Self in my lvl 4 picks at all. But it would require far less metagaming knowledge of traps than using Spell Immunity or even Pro:Petri. It's best combined with Teleport Field (yet another 4th lvl slot...) to get immunity to most things as your summons/clones hack away. If SCS goes in the direction of letting spell deflection/turning affect area spells, then that would be a much more efficient way to handle traps of course.
That being said, my spell list:
Level 1
Shield ( essential in BG1 )
Magic Missile
Pro Petrification
Find Familiar
Pro Evil ( should have Blindness but no soe )
Level 2
Melf's Acid Arrow
Resist Fear
Mirror Image
Invisibility
Knock
Level 3
Haste
Melf's Minute Meteors
Remove Magic
Skull Trap
Ghost Armor ( should have been Slow )
Level 4
Stoneskin
Improved Invisibility
Spider Spawn
Wizard Eye
Minor Sequencer
Level 5
Animate Dead
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield ( Beholders )
Lower Resistance
Sunfire
Level 6
Pro Magic Weapons
Contingency
True Seeing
Chain Lightning
Invisible Stalker
Level 7
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Projected Image
Spell Sequencer
Delayed Blast Fireball
Mordenkainen's Sword ( could have used Power Word Stun )
Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Spell Trigger
Simulacrum
Maze ( used on myself the most to recharge spells )
Level 9
Time Stop
Chain Contingency
Spell Trap
Power Word Kill ( could have been Imprisonment )( see Maze )
Was going for damage, and summons on each level above 3.
Hate Wish sleeping so went for Spell Trap/Projected Image spell recharging.
After a point, with this set up, I never came close to reloading. BG1 was a real grind though.
Every area started the same way: ST then PI. PI cast Maze and PWK on Kero Tam(my character). PI casts 4 Skellies and Eyeball. Murder, Death, Kill til PI goes away.
How necessary did you find the ST/PI-recharging trick to be? My experience with it is that the sheer spell economy of PI alone is sufficient. Throw in simmys too at high levels, and you really have as many spell books as you have level 7 and 8 slots. I can't imagine a single encounter in SoA (though haven't played all of ToB) where I'd need to empty my spellbook more than 3-4 times before resting in the good old fashioned way.
Another way to conserve spell slots is use of the long duration summons. I only brought out PI for the big fights in SoA. Before leaving, it left an army of skelly warriors lasting many hours to handle future grinds. So I cast Invisibility on my rabbit familiar, which scouted out each area and cleared out each room by sending in the long lasting skells. Rabbit+invisibility is a better Wizard Eye since Invisibility lasts so long AND you get trap detection. If someone wiped out my 5 skells (rare in SoA, though this was before using SCS), I knew it was time to suit up with PI and Farsight and have the PI use some bigger guns like gated summons (to thwart Death Spell) or Mordy Swords (if the +1 weapons of the skell warriors were not effective). It was extremely rare for me to have to actually cast spells myself or partake in combat. To avoid such situations further, I also used Contingency:Helpless:Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to turn Project Image with its fast casting time into an "oh shit button". I also used chain contingency: ORS, SI:Abjuration (for dispel immunity) and Summon Fiend with a 75% hp trigger, so that if I ever came to harm (usually indicating that something had gone terribly wrong), there would litterally be hell to pay.
As for BG1 being a grind, did you use mundane weaponry at all? I know my throwing daggers have greatly helped the sense of hopelessness I got trying to use 3 spell slots as my only means of offense at level 1. Anyway, on to your spell selection:
Level 1: Agree completely here.
Level 2: As discussed, I'd swap Knock for Web since it's not really needed.
Level 3: In the Slow/Ghost Armor slot, did you ever find the need for Spell Thrust? I'm asking since you were on SCS and the mages there tend to use Spell Immunity A LOT, so having a spell stripper in your low level slots is rather convenient. I also think it might make mages in BG1 less of a problem (though the poison damage from spawned spiders is perhaps sufficient since it bypasses stoneskin and disrupts spell casting). Thoughts on this?
Level 4: I'm actually in the habit of skipping ImpInv here and getting Mislead at level 6 instead. It's OK if you rely on summons a lot, which I do. I also favor Farsight over Wizard Eye to enable Project Image later on, since I can already use my invisible rabbit to guide summons to battle. I tend to pick ORS for Contingency shenanigans and greater survivability at high levels, though I've experiemented with Polymorph Self, Teleport Field, Fire Shield and of course ImpInv in this slot too. The other slots I feel are not really up for discussion, though the spiders can of course be skipped if you start in ToB.
Level 5: I think Breach is more important than Lower Resistance. Against high MR foes, I just don't bother with LR, letting summons handle them instead. Breach helps greatly to strip PfMW, but I suppose you could wait them out in some situations too. Spell Shield is really nice to have, but SCS now "nerfs" it to how it should have been (resisting only 1 anti magic ray before going away). I think in most situations, another casting of Spell Immunity would have been as efficient (though "protection from Spell Strike" is good at higher levels I suppose - again, I prefer using Fiends and Farsight over taking active part in tit-for-tat mage duels). I would very much not want to be without Cloudkill here. Poison damage is hard for enemy mages to protect against, and it goes so well with Web + Spiders (immune) or skellies (also immune).
Level 6: The only one I disagree with here is Invisible Stalker. With the summoning limit, I'd rather just use skellies or even spiders for my low level summoning, conserving these slots for PfMW. I take Mislead here instead, having skipped ImpInv before. It's nice to have access to lightning damage and Chain Lightning dishes out the damage very well. However, there are other pressing concerns here too. Death Spell or Death Fog against summons is never a bad thing. I also find Pro: Magic Energy to be a decent investment here. It makes me less wary of using Skull Trap (or 3x Skull Trap in a trigger), and it protects against the many horrid wiltings enemy SCS mages use. In fact, many of them use ADHW to thwart Mordy Swords too (rather than Death Spell) and if you're summoning them with a PI, you might as well buff them (and your real self) with this too.
Level 7: I think this is a good selection, though if I were to replace one of the spells with PW:Stun, I'd pick DBF and not Mordy Sword (a crucial instrument in many of the more difficult encounters, I find). DBF feels really superfluos with MMM, Sunfire and Dragon Breath already available, but maybe I'm underestimating it? If one doesn't pick up Spell Trap at level 9, Spell Turning is a good choice too here I think. SCS mages don't care if you're using Trap or Turning, so unless you NEED the recharge trick, you're wasting a level 9 spell where a level 7 would have sufficed. And as discussed above, I don't think recharging is necessary. Also, there's something to be said for Limited Wish granting some useful effects like Negative Plane Protection or a horde of bunnies to confuse the AI. Anyway, I'd probably just take your selection and swap DBF out for Spell Turning since I don't need PW Stun for recharging anyway.
Level 8: I'd want Summon Fiend here over Maze. It's only marginally less powerful than Gate, and I find using summons immune to death spell is a must. It's even more crucial if you're using "HLAs as innate abilities" in SCS, in which case your PI:s can't summon planetars and you can only summon one before resting. The rest looks pretty optimal to me, though a solo build relying on Pro:Magic Energy + Skulltrap can afford to pick something else in the ADHW slot (though there's arguably little that's better anyway).
Level 9: Yes, I take Imprisonment here and I'm not ashamed of it. It's a great way of handling those horrible fiends with Teleport Without Error that I otherwise find a chore to manage in solo poverty mode (especially with only one planetar available). Time Stop and Chain Contingency are the only non-negotiables I find - the rest is much up to play style (though if you're not picking Imprisonment, you're missing out). Some like Wish, some like Spell Trap - I think both are rather superflous TBH. My final level 9 slot will usually be Spell Strike, Shapechange or Wail of the Banshee - I haven't really decided on which I think helps more. Spell Strike probably, it's the one I usually go for.
Sorry for the wall of text, though it's hard to avoid when discussing 31 levels of sorceror spell selection. Anyway, nice list - it's given me food for thought and it looks like I'll be using at least 80% of it.
Before I get too deep into spell selection, let me go more into the reasons for the general direction and ascending progression of necessity.
I have used SCS almost exclusively in the past, but prefer plain patched game now. Once you understand the mechanics of SCS it's only more difficult in a no-reload run. I've never been much interested in no-reload.
In ToB summons loose their luster, go from being meat and potatoes, to just a garnish. Here, big bad dragon, look at this while I wrack my brain for a way to peal the flesh from your bones. Don't get me wrong, they are great, just not enough to finish the deed. At some point the pc has to get his/her hands dirty.
My conscience here compels me to be completely honest. Druids are the easiest to solo ToB, well up to Melissan anyway, because of the summons. Mainly because elemental princes are so tough to kill. Gives the pc time to simmy, simmy Magic Resists bad guy, pc sneaks in and smacks said bad guy with harm. All powerful dragon is now worm food. Or Energy Blade blade him to death. Either way the EPs are the ultimate summons imo, and can hold off the bosses long enough to find a solution.
I've never used fiends much. Mostly because i can't make them do what i want them to :-)
Are they really great? If so I may have to suppress my control impulses.
Without SCS, and even to a great extent with SCS, AoE spells are the the easiest way to eliminate spell slingers. I tried to put a decent variety of them in , and wished over and over that I would have used Cloud Kill instead of Spell Shield. It feels like I overuse CK so thought to let it sit this one out.
Melissan battle comes in three, two part, segments and one final showdown. You cannot sleep after leaving the pocket plane the last time.(Assention is different but, iirc, you still cannot sleep)
You can, and I have many times, do it with just the spells on hand. It seemed to me, however, that being mostly naked was enough of an imposition. Hating Wish rest, I went the other route. Spell Trap
Those are the contributing factors, so onward to the spell selections.
Ghost Armor was the last level three pick. The mouse hovered over Spell Thrust for the longest time. Having not yet excluded Cloud Kill I thought I could do without it. Of all my picks GA was the worst but it did not effect the outcome. Slow in a poverty run would have helped much more, but I am stubborn. No SoE spells. Sometimes my thinking baffles even me.
II for me is essential, as it can be cast on summons. The mage might not cast spells at me, but it becomes a hassle when he cast an AoE save or else spell at the Skeleton Warrior standing next to me.
When arrows start flying and axes are shredding flesh i tend to keep the familiar out of harms way. My very first familiar became a victim of an Edwin flung fireball. I don't mourn when an eyeball dies though.
Never used ORS. Is it effective?
Yup, not using CK was an "OOPS!" on the level of Nixon's Watergate, Clinton's blue dress or baby Bush's WMD. I was wrong not to pick it. Cloudkill is too useful to leave out.
Spell Shield was a waste. I got my first level 7 pick right before the first beholder encounter. DBFb off screen and run, leaving DBFb along the way and Skellies to mop up. It got me through almost all the beholder fights. I never used the SS.
Invisible Stalker was me just being stubborn and putting a summon in the level.
Pro Magic Energy tempts me too much to use game engine abuse. In a pinch my willpower wavers.
Contingency loaded with an AoE spell, and targeted at self, bypasses all enemy resistances.
Things get tough and its too easy for me to load a CC with three Skull Trap and drop them on my Pro Magical Energy self. Eventually I just stopped using the spell. Same with 100% fire resistance and CC loaded with Incendiary Cloud or green pro poison scroll with CC Cloudkill. Enemy resistances are a big part of why ToB is difficult. To so easily bypass them seems wrong to me.
DBFb is a Lich killer, at a time when you face them most, as in long before Dragon's Breath. Also this was the first time i used it on beholders, it was effective.
My stats roll was horrible so without dropping my strength to 6, wisdom had to suffer. Wish in any form would have been bad. I always keep my mages strength above 10. The reason i think is because MMM weigh a lot. Maybe not, like I said, I always keep Strength 10 or above.
Anyway, those are the reasons, good or bad, I chose the spells I did.
You've given me lots to think about for my next Sorc run. Thanks!
Oh! I forgot Breach vs Lower Resistance.
Breach was not needed because I used AoE to kill most mages. And even when i didn't, 4 rounds is not that long.
Lower Resistance on some of the ToB bosses (*cough* Balthazar) is essential.
Hope my ramblings have helped some.
You never commented on whether you used mundane items or not in your poverty run, but if you had to level in BG1 using only Magic Missile, man - that's gotta hurt. If you're not using Wish or Limited Wish and don't care about item discounts, focusing on physical attributes with a sorceror should come at no opportunity cost, so these days I make my sorcs with 18 Str
From what I've seen on videos of people soloing Demogorgon etc, Mordy Swords seem to retain their usefulness throughout ToB. I was also suprised in the start of ToB, how useful common spiders and skellies still were, though I can understand if they're not really useful later on. Anyway, if Mordy Swords are useful, then fiends and planetars should be too. Again, at high levels I view skells mostly as a way to squeeze more value from the short duration PI so it leaves something useful for mopping up mooks before it vanishes.
As for the familiar getting injured, I don't actually keep it around when combat ensues. It works like this: you have your shock troup of skellies idling somewhere between you and your invisible rabbit. Rabbit scouts, finds traps and enemies. Position rabbit so enemies can just be seen. Give the marching orders to your skellies. Withdraw the rabbit so it's as safe from the midst of combat as you are - combat happens in the fog of war and you can get an overview how it's going from the text pop ups. When it's done, sneak rabbit back in to check that all is killed. Move your guy to the now secured location and repeat. If you MUST view, you can use Farsight, but skelly AI is pretty good and it's not like they can do much more than swing anyway.
Interesting note about druids! I've toyed with the idea of using a shapechanger for a solo poverty run too. The werewolf form makes early BG1 a breeze and starting at level 7, druids are kings of summoning. I'd much rather attempt this under Spell Revisions however, as vanilla spell selection for druids is just an extremely sad thing. Also, with HLAs an innate abilities (both SCS and SR), I doubt I'd be able to rely on elemental princes as much.
Fiends - especially the level 8 one (hits as +4 weapon, sees invisible and has many strong abilities/immunities) - are great. IIRC, I handled about 80-90% of Twisted Rune (non SCS) with a single Summon Fiend, so that should give you a feel for its power. I prefer not to micromanage summons anyway, and I expect it will have even more effective AI, so just stand back and let the enemies try to handle it.
ORS goes well with Fiends too, as it makes their unfriendly AoE spells unproblematic if the protagonist gets unexpectedly caught in combat (who cares if your PI dies after stopping time, wilting and summoning a fiend?) It's really a tool to increase high-level survivability through Contingency and Project Image shenanigans. It solves many niche problems, but doesn't have the broad applicability of other spells. I wouldn't want to be without it, but it's the last 4th slot I fill, at a point where unique effects contribute more than more redundant damage/summoning.
I find it very interesting that, even without Cloudkill, you think AoE is the way to go against enemy mages. I thought elemental protections against fire and magic damage (as in: all your AoE damage types) would be pretty common with SCS? The beauty with Cloudkill is that it's poison - a damage type that no wizard spell can ward against. Even so, I think it's pretty ballsy to rely on AoE for killing mages
I understand the appeal of being able to recharge - SoA Irenicus also doesn't let you rest - I just remarked that the spell economy from PI alone should be sufficient (this was the case for me soloing Irenicus with SoA level cap at least). If your protagonist hasn't exhausted more than a couple of high level slots from the first battle, recharging should be unnecessary.
I can see the appeal of buffing summons with II, but skellies have 90% MR as it is, so they only fear Death Spell (and SCS mages use AoE spells on invisible targets very well). Since invisibility can't handle Death Spell, I simply use two summons coming at the mage from either direction. Say he turns towards the spider on the left and start casting - then it remains there while the other sword spider attacks and might even land poision damage before he finishes casting (depending on protections). Or you land a cloudkill first for disruption, and then send in the spiders when he won't be getting off most spells.
In your examples with DBF, wouldn't Skull Trap have worked almost as well and not costed you a level 7 slot that could have been another PI? Or even Sunfire if the beholder closed in, ignoring Magic Resistance? Similarly, isn't ADHW a better answer to liches (though I must say, I have no trouble postponing lich fights to level 18+ if I'm soloing - getting there is quite fast - and Planetar makes liches cake)? I'm not doubting that DBF can solve problems, I'm just not seeing what it adds to an already well rounded repertoire.
The game abuse you mention - I don't think Pro:Magic is the transgressor here, but the broken Contingeny spell. SR fixes it, but SCS doesn't. With Contingency, you can cast spells while the game is Paused. It's like a super Time Stop + Improved Alacrity that nobody is immune against. So if you can restrain yourself not to abuse that, using Pro:Magic in a "responsible" manner should not be difficult
I checked up on Balthazar a bit and I'm really not seeing why I would need Lower Resistance. Can he even see invisible? He certainly doesn't have access to Death Spell or dispel effects. What can he do against an invisible caster and Mordy Swords immune to non-magic damage? Let alone a Fiend (immune to his Solar Stance and sees right through his invisibility). Knowing what I know now, my plan against him would be:
Round 1: Project Image. Contingency: ORS triggers from helpless and I'm immune. PI casts Mislead (almost instantaneously after it appears). The mislead clone then starts running around in Benny Hill fashion to kite Balthazar and his goons so PI can get off a time stop.
Round 2: PI casts Time Stop (couldn't see that balthazar was immune?). 2 Mordy Swords and 1 Fiend come forth. Swords go well with Fiends since they are immune to most of their stuff.
Round 3: Fiend and Swords attack Balthazar, taking the heat of the clones. As long as the clones live, PI can continue to Time Stop and support with more swords, fiends, haste etc after each casting - threats Balthazar seems powerless against.
Round 4: win?
Maybe I'm underestimating this, but I only had walkthroughs to go on.
I only use a wooden staff in my poverty runs, and yes bg1 was brutal. Something like 30 hours to get through it.
Mordy swords stay mostly useful throughout the game. Just that so many ToB bosses deal with them easily.
If you plan to do a poverty druid run, some sort of shapeshifter mod would be needed. Too many ToB enemies dispel on hit. Claws go away on dispel. Actually it might be easier with an Avenger. II makes the whole game easier. It shames me to admit but... I abused the hell out of claw dispel in my shapeahifter solo run. Simmy dispel the claws to use weapons. Wrong, I know, but incredibly fun!
It's been so long since I've played that I've forgotten many of the specifics. So...
I started a solo, sorc poverty run.
Some things came back right away.
Invisible Stalker was chosen because of how long it takes to get to level 15 to use SW. Vampires would show up and ruin my day. Er... Night.
I bulled my way through the poverty run simply because I thought I could. My job was taking up more and more of my time and my ex complained if i spent too much time playing bg. Reliance on summons takes more time.
Sword Spiders don't poison but do eat through Stoneskins fast. I started in SoA so I dropped the Pro Petrification. Also dropped invisibility because i will get II quick. I could use level 3 Invisibility 10' Radius instead. Still have one more level 3 pick. Got Web and Stinking Cloud. Stinking cloud for skellies and web for spiders. It sucks that Poly Self spider form is not immune to web or i would have picked PS. Also comboing web and SC with CK is effective.
I 10' R reminded me of another tactic i often used as a solo sorc. Mass Invisibility and two PI in CC. With a spell immunity in a contingecy. I try not to metagame so this was usually a great way to start a battle.
Liches are immune to all spells below level, um, 7 i think so ST doesn't work at all on them. Is also why I use ruby ray but I remember now that I picked ruby ray because I always pick RR. Without breach it was useless. All I can say about DBFb is try it. It is more effective than you might think.
I will be using almost the exact same spell selections that I used last time, so we will see how it works out. Besides the changes I already mentioned I may use:
3-I 10' R or Slow for the useless GA
4-ORS or Ice Storm for Minor Sequencer
5-Already replaced SS with CK and because of that may replace Sunfire with Minor Spell Turning
6-Gonna try to go without the Invisible Stalker so will put in Death Spell or Nishruu
7-Ruby Ray is out so Limited Wish(already been level drained once!) or try your Cacofiend
8-Maze for Power Word Blind or again Fiend :-)
9-PWK for Wish
Gonna try to power my way through like I did last time. It'll be cast spells, cast some more, then when everything is dead kick the corpses.
How far did you make it in SoA with poverty Sorc? Just asking because some of the things you say kinda sounds like you are relying on RoV and AoP to lower casting time.
Probably missed some stuff, it's late, but will get to it later if i did.
Will do some quests outside Amn next.
No need to unlock doors yet.
Two traps could be an issue for no-reload. Acid trap in slavers den, slum district-no spell immunity stops it. Just gotta have 63 hit points, no problem with familiar. The alter with the Astral Prison gem, in the sewers, temple district has a trap. No spell immunity stops it, just have to save.
I am guessing that spell deflection will take care of the second one, maybe ORS. Never used ORS, can you open stuff with it on?
Will keep you up to date on locks.
Re: Stalker to handle Vampires: I pick both Mislead and PfMW early (over Stalker), which makes them less of a problem. As for killing them, why not use Sunfire? There may be some tight spots in Amn where you might kill innocents, but I assume you could kite them to safer killing grounds. Does a stalker last long enough against vamps? Is it immune to level drain? Anyway, I permit myself temple services (and resting at inns) as well, so getting a level drained isn't so bad as long as I survive.
Sword Spiders don't poison? Am I confusing them with the preceeding phase spiders or did they change this in enhanced edition? Or maybe it was in one of my Spell Revisions installs (pretty sure they poison there). Anyway, good thing there's Cloudkill.
I actually came up with a new strategy for the Basilisks: Glitterdust. As in: scout with invisible rabbit as always. Position and cast it out of sight without risk of harm until the thing is blinded. Since it only lasts 4 rounds (but gives -4 to save while it does), I'll be tagging the 'lisk with level 1 Blindness as well, between dagger throws. I've decided I probably need Glitterdust more than Web in BG1 anyway - TBH, it has synergy with every summon since it's party friendly, whereas Web is only cute with spiders.
I'll be missing out on 1 of my 5 picks for level 2 in BG1 and I honestly don't know what to postpone until SoA. I guess it will have to be Resist Fear. I know I *must* take Invisibility at level 4 (crucial in no reload) and Glitterdust + Blindness lets me go big game hunting. That leaves Mirror Image, Melf's Acid Arrow and Resist Fear. Would you way I *need* Melf's Acid Arrow to kill the werewolf quickly enough? If not, I might take it in SoA.
The level 3 progression is still undecided too. Which 3 would you pick for BG1 out of: Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Haste, Remove Magic and Spell Thrust. I'm thinking Remove Magic is pretty useless in BG1, as most tough spell casters will be higher level even when soloing. Haste has its defensive uses early on, but it's really there to make my summons more deadly. I think Spell Thrust will be good with Glitterdust and Blindness for handling opposing casters in BG1 (need a way to handle Minor Globe). Skull Trap and MMM are bread and butter killing spells so I don't see how I could do without those. I'd like to have Haste too, but I can't have everything. What do you think?
Just FYI, I'll be limiting myself to maximum 1 PI and 1 Sim at a time. As for the casting time reduction - Robe of Vecna etc. isn't necessary. Project Image and Mislead both have CT 1. Contingency triggers immediately of course, and your PI works on a different round clock than you, so it can cast Mislead immediately when it appears. I try not to meta game as well - heavy scouting with the familiar keeps me somewhat honest at least.
Also, fiends are A LOT better (works both ways) if you're using SCS. People think they're weak if you're not using SCS, but even vanilla Glabrezu (Summon Fiend, level 8) still is immune to +2 or lower weapons, strikes as +4 and has 50% MR and decent saves, immunity to fire and some OK spell casting IIRC. Maybe immune to slay effects too? Few fighter types in BG2 can strike as +3 and the resistances are of course problematic to casters. See the SCS 2 readme for more details on how the Fiends are streamlined and improved if you use that mod.
What inspired you to contemplate Limited Wish and Wish? To me, these are non-solo spells more than anything. Wish especially is nothing I'd want for no reload as well.
Good find on the traps! ORS disables you completely - you can't do anything. IIRC, there's a contingency trigger that goes off if you're targeted with anything? Maybe that can throw up an ORS so quickly that it shields you before the trap's projectile hits, rendering you immune? If not, polymorph/mustard jelly or shapechange/iron golem should work, but I'm not 100% sure you can open containers while polymorphed. Has Spell Immunity worked against the other traps of note?
Looking forward to your input on level 2 and 3 spell progression - you have much more BG1 experience than I do. To clarify, I'm looking at:
Level 1: Shield (1), Find Familiar (1), Blindness (3), Magic Missile (5), Protection from Evil (7)
Level 2: Invisibility (4), Glitterdust (5), Mirror Image (7) - one of Resist Fear and Melf's Acid Arrow
Level 3: Melf's Minute Meteors (6), Skull Trap (7) - one of Spell Thrust, Haste and Remove Magic
Level 4: Stoneskin (8), Spider Spawn (9) - the rest is in SoA
Level 1: Blind, Magic Missile, 3x whatever.
Level 2: Invisibility, Web, Mirror Image, Melf's Acid Arrow, Resist Fear
Level 3: Skull Trap, Haste, Remove Magic, Melf's Minute Meteors, Slow OR Flame Arrow OR Ghost Armor
Level 4: Stoneskin, Improved Invis; Teleport Field, Spider Spawn, Farsight
Level 5: Sunfire OR Cone of Cold; Spell Immunity, Breach, Animate Dead, Lower Resistance
Level 6: Globe of Invulnerability, True Seeing, PfMW,
Level 7: Mordenkainen's Sword, Ruby Ray, Project Image
Level 8: ADHW, Spell Trigger
I've taken Globe of Invulnerability at level 6. IMO, GoI is a great spell - especially in conjunction with the other spells on this list. Immunity to your own Web, Skull Trap, and Teleport Field spells makes this one nasty, especially since both Web and Teleport Field overlap with each other and can stack on both themselves and each other. Teleport Field offers no save, as well. Farsight is a direct replacement for Wizard Eye that complements both Project Image and summons generally. I'm personally not a big Spider Spawn fan but it does work well with Web. Not sure if Sword Spiders poison or not.
I really wouldn't take Chain Lightning or Invisible Stalker at level 6 - Stalkers are just too weak and the damage on Chain is just too poor. I wouldn't take protection from magical energy either - GoI handles your own skull traps, ADHW is party-friendly, and SI:Necromancy is there for the high-level spells. Contingency never hurts.
This build offers a lot strategically - fairly robust defenses, battlefield control, direct damage, and summoning. I'd personally round out the remaining picks by making sure to pick at least one of Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield, or Spellstrike to broaden your ways to take down enemy spell defenses.
You may be able to get away with waiting to SoA for MAA. Skull Trap does most of the work anyway.
Level 3 Skull Trap is a given and MMM is a good idea. As I've previously said, I've never really used Spell Thrust but I can see where it might be good at low levels. Wouldn't Hasted spiders work just as well on mages though. I would take haste, but that's my personal preference.
Limited Wish is not a given yet for me, but wanted to see how long negative plane protection would last. Wish though, may not be required but helps with Mel. REALLY helps with Mel. Also the rods and potions it creates fit right in with poverty imo. Nothing given, nothing taken, nothing picked up and nothing bought but... anything that can come from myself, through spells or abilities, is fair game.
As for traps, those are the only two I couldn't walk around or ignore. For 100% completion i don't think chests are required. No spell immunity worked on them. So maybe a spell turning would help. May drop LW for spell turning or mass invisibility. Not sure which is more useful. Spell turning should eliminate ALL traps that are not physical( acid trap, #@*#$%@!!! ) MI is so sweet in CC it almost feels like cheating.
You are right about the vampires but they caught up to me at the city gates the second time. No where to kite. I killed them but level drained again.
@wampa
I like a most of your spell picks and have used them all on occasion.
Some thoughts:
PI can cast GA on you. GA lasts a long time and has good defense. I have been revising my opinion of GA on this play through. I haven't taken it yet, but I might.
Tele Field doesn't help much against mages and they are really the only thing that that will generally kill a sorc. Things that come at you with a pointy stick end up as a smoking piece of meat.
Chain Lightning helps against mages and drow but could be left out i guess. GoI might not be much help in ToB, but it does have its uses.
Thank you both for giving me things to think about. :-)
3rd level:
have-MMM, ST, Haste, RM
last pick-I 10' R, Spell Thrust, GA, Slow
4th level:
have-II, Stoneskin,Wizard Eye, SS
last pick-Poly Self, ORS, Ice Storm, Spirit Armor
Thoughts?
OMG - I had completely forgotten about the fact that Wish can create wands and potions - that is HUGE. In particular if you have completionist ambitions in SCS, because now I have a source of cold and lightning damage (against Chromatic Demon) without having to pick so-so spells when picks are already tight. When you say that it helps a lot against Melissan, are you referring to the rest option, the "super Time Stop that bypasses Time Stop immunity" one time option or something else? Either way, isn't in kinda random and you risk having wasted precious time without getting something that really helps?
This more or less convinces me that I'll be picking up Wish as my 4th level 9 pick, which in turn fixes my attributes too:
STR 18, DEX 19, CON 17*, INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 8 = 88 points (a breeze)
I choose 17 CON because it means I can afford one familiar death throughout the saga (no reload) without penalty. Int and Cha are minimum 8 for elves, but not needed for much else. With high Wisdom, Limited Wish becomes more attractive too of course. There's also the infamous bunnies + ADHW combo with Limited Wish + Wish (in this manner, more than twenty ADHW will be cast on screen - be sure to suit up with Pro: Magic Energy).
As for my level 2 pick, I'm really wondering if Resist Fear or Melf's Acid Arrow will be more useful in BG1. From your reply and considering a bit, I'd say Resist Fear is better. At low levels, L2 slots will go to Invisibility, Mirror Image and Glitterdust A LOT. You won't be able to afford spending them on acid damage. Once you upgrade invisibility options and get PfMW, you're much more free to use them offensively. Also, once you get Project Image, Resist Fear is rendered rather redundant because you won't even be in the same room as 90% of all battles from that point and onward. All the more reason to get it in BG1 when it's still a key immunity to have.
You're probably right that hasty spiders would work just as well as Spell Thrust - it just *feels* less sequre, more of a one trick pony that opens me up more to redundant Death Spells. Meh, I think I'll grab Spell Thrust and take Haste at level 11 and Remove Magic at level 22 (when the level gap against enemies starts adding up).
As for your picks at level 3: Only pick Spell Thrust if you decide to go with Breach and focusing on summoning support (like I prefer to do - a good thing if you want to use Fiends this time around). Spell Thrust + Ruby Ray is the most efficient combination of spell protection removers IMO, especially under SCS. If you want to use AoE to handle casters but still want to buff summons more, then I-10'-R or GA seems reasonable. Finally, if you want a good debuff regardless of summons, pick Slow. Few are immune to slow and under 2e rules, low level save-or-else spells are as efficient as high level ones, so why not profit from this? Personally, I don't really care how fast my opponents are since my meat shields are expendable and Mordy Sword doesn't care about getting hit and fiends will expire due to time before hp, PfMW still lasts 3 rounds regardless etc. etc. I pick Spell Thrust because I'm doing BG1 first and use SCS. You do neither and like using AoE to kill mages, so I'd actually recommend GA or I-10'-R.
Level 4: Don't pick SA if you pick GA obviously. Both Polymorph Self and ORS serve more or less the same purpose, and both require planning ahead to make the most of them. ORS requires contingencies and the will to use them in quite specific ways. Morph will be very limited unless you plan for it, ideally with stuff like Teleport Field. Ice Storm sucks unless you're using Spell Revisions (then it's acceptable). I shall be using Wish-created wands of frost for my cold damage needs!
@wampa:
I think you have a good list and comments. I agree that Chain Lightning and Invisible Stalker are not priority level 6 picks. I've noticed neither you nor Nightfall mentions Mislead though. Have you not yet experienced its dark power? It's just leaps and bounds more broken than Improved Invisibility. While it lasts you get ImpInv AND regular ("true") Invisibility applied each round. While the decoy lives, you can cast all you like and still stay hidden. Enemies will run towards you as you begin but then stop mid way and shrug, wondering where you went off too. And the casting time is 1. IMO, the most powerful level 6 spells are:
PfMW (obviously)
Contingency
Mislead
True Seeing (when soloing)
The final slot could be a protective spell like GoI or Pro: Magic Energy, or something offensive like Chain Lightning/Stalker, or a summon killer like Death Spell/Fog, mostly depending on play style and build.
As for Teleport Field - it bypasses Magic Resistance and Saving Throws. Mind Flayers, Drow, Demons, Dragons, Vampires, and Golems all are effected by it. This is a nice list of creatures to be a lot less worried about. Sure you have PfMW, but the -really- hard fights tend to mix enemy spellcasters and melee fighters together, and one lucky Breach/Remove/Dispell is all it takes for you to suddenly be PfMW-less at a crucial second.
@urdjur - I didn't know Mislead re-applied "regular" invisibility every round - the spell description says nothing about it. That said, I can see how it would be incredibly powerful. Still, I wouldn't take it in a book that already had Spell Immunity, Project Image, and Improved Invisibility. If you ditched II from your level 4 slots though, I'd take it without question. As I see it, you're already going to pound most groups of enemies without True Seeing or innate invisibility detection into the ground anyway. Mislead might make those fights take fewer spells, but isn't going to really mess with the results.
I personally rarely take Contingency until my last level 6 spell pick if at all, even on no-reload attempts. I'm almost always walking around with at least Stoneskin up - usually Stoneskin + Invis, which alone helps avoid a lot of random unpleasantness.
Not sure why people dislike the eyeball so much. I just cleared out the astral prison with PI, four hasted skellies and an eyeball. Well, can't clear out the cells without the pc, got those after. So you know, watch out for the Gith dudes. Their sleep effect will put you down. Worked through half the spell immunities and didn't find the right one, just got lucky with the saves and got a cloudkill off.
Anyway the eyeball is a mobile camera. It can also block doors.
The prison was much easier than I remember it being. Skellies eat Yuntai mages the guy that holds the orb and the warden. The only 2 problem areas were the previously mentioned Gith and the Clay Golem. Stalker would have helped here, but MMM finally took him down.
Will be starting another thread soon on my ultimate goal. 5 characters, no repeat classes, no sorc poverty run.
Perhaps the two of you can give me some input before I do.
1st - In my previous try(can't find the save) I didn't use any scrolls just the spells to level 4. I made it far but it was tough. Was thinking of using scrolls i found but this would leave out some critical spells. Do you think buying two scrolls level 5 through 7 and one level 8 and 9 would violate the spirit of the challenge too much? The original challenge( another forum, long ago ), people were using sorcs. Sorcs would be even moor powerful. To my knowledge, I was the only one to make it to ToB in the challenge, so it is possible to get that far without spells over level four. I would declare the spells i would buy at the beginning of the run and buy them when they are available. Thoughts?
2nd - characters - Ranger dualed to cleric at level seven
Kensai or Berserker dualed to mage at level 7( first time it was a specialist mage dualed to fighter ) but if
i am going to use scrolls above level four the other way around would be better
Shapeshifter or Avenger but shapeshifter is the ultimate tank
Skald
Bounty Hunter
Would like to start this thread and challenge after my sorc poverty run.
Tell me what you think. Thanks :-)
Edit: on second thought, you could argue that poverty is waivered for scribing scrolls into books, as long as you're not using them as consumables in combat. But at that point, it's moot if you take a sorc or wiz.
Yes, Enchanted Weapon & MMM.
Level 4 spells are the max you can start SoA with.
Druid and Cleric had energy blades near the end. Everyone was running a sorc in their playthrough. I just thought it was too powerful having already solo poverty a sorc.
Back to the current run. The sorc is almost too powerful for SoA already. Just got level 9 spells and picked CC and Planetar as HLA. Getting ready to head to Umar Hills.
Watch out for the shadows in tight spaces urdjur, they do NOT hit as magical weapons and hold on hit. Could hurt in no-reload if you are not careful. They got me in one of the tombs in the graveyard district.
I wonder if SI Enchantment would protect against their hold? I am seriously beginning to think a spell turning at some level would be good for a no-reload. The traps are one thing, but the Gith would not have slept me if i would have had spell turning. SI Evocation protects against all the Djinn stuff.
I will test the SI Enchantment against shadows in the Shade Lord dungeon with a PI or Simmy and let you know.
I have heard so many people say you can solo ANY class, I have yet to beat Mel with a druid. Maybe I just do not have their mad skills. I have soloed every other class and subclass through the entire game. I have only poverty soloed the whole game with a sorc and cleric/mage. Just finished c/m last week.
Btw, wouldn't travelling invisible solve both gith and shadow problems? Also, is the gith sleep effect AoE, because turning will only work if it's targeted.