It's not easy to be Evil

BLack_XIII

After some thoughts, i've realized than in the vanilla game there are no no real incentive for being evil, as all the best rewards come from acting good, meaning that you actively have to sacrifice in order to be evil (and seeing as evil characters tend to be the most opportunistic, that makes little sense) or you have to go on rampages through the city just to maintain your low reputation (and that's not very intelligent).

In past, i've seen a couple of fan made mod, who've tried to make something for this situation but, after a ton of ideas, the ideas died.

So i ask, if possbile for devs create some DLC, to introduce evil quest and maybe, if possible, some evil plotting lines? and maybe a better evil reputation management? (Sorry for my bad english :P)

Schneidend

Except, you know, for all the awesome stuff you can acquire through theft and murder, like Algernon's Cloak.

Baldur

Or the epic badass artifacts you can get through sacrificing the innocent, or a party member, to the Lower Planes.

Communard

I think part of the problem is that you don't lose rep points for things you really should, so people have stopped viewing things like robbing peasants of their savings is as evil, as long as you don't get caught, when it really is. If you're going to act like an utter bastard and let people know it then your life *is* going to be harder and people *are* going to hate you. Crimes have a way of catching up with you. Then again, the Baldur's Gate "evil" options are pretty tame and mainly revolve around asking for more money. The evil options in PS:T are closer to what true evil means, but are often so disurbing that very few people go through with them.

Baldur

The choices you got in Planescape: Torment were the stuff that makes you lie awake at night going 'what have I done?'

..I loved that.

Winthal

It's funny tho, many many acts in the game don't count for either good/bad reputation when perhaps they should. At least if the game used an internal alignment system that slides your character in the direction of good/bad on a personal level, and not just on a reputation based level where you could technically get away with murder and still be lauded and praised as a hero.

When I look back on a lot of my early playthroughs of the series, it doesn't look good :P I would probably be chaotic evil if the game tracked all the times I pushed another adventuring party into an open fight just to take their items - sure they usually start mouthing off first, but there are plenty of opportunities to resolve things peacefully if you just swallow your pride and let them talk, then walk away - like say the adventuring group that are standing in the middle of basilisk valley south of Beregost. Or counting all the times I "accidentally" let myself in to someones home in the city of Baldur's Gate, and accidentally killing the home owner and taking their stuff (Jardak with the helmet of glory comes to mind as an exceptionally evil act that doesn't count towards anything).

So, there are plenty of evil acts in the game, they just aren't tracked by any sort of internal alignment system, and if no one finds out about it... you don't loose reputation, even lawful good paladins get away with murder :P

BLack_XIII

theft of Algernon's Cloak it's not really an evil act per se. And the sacrifice the innocent, is in bg 2 if i remember correctly, and in any case the're are not a really evil path in BG. If you want to follow your father step, you cannot, because de 90% are for good or neutral player.

Communard

BLack_XIII said:

theft of Algernon's Cloak it's not really an evil act per se. And the sacrifice the innocent, is in bg 2 if i remember correctly, and in any case the're are not a really evil path in BG. If you want to follow your father step, you cannot, because de 90% are for good or neutral player.

Why isn't it an evil act? You're robbing an innocent merchant of a prized possession. Often the way to get ahead in BG is theft and murder, you just don't often lose rep for it so people don't think it's "evil". You can be incredibly and openly evil but you will have a hard life and people will hate you. That's how it should be.

Cheesebelly

You can kill a cat in BG1... The one related to the Angel Ring thingy I believe? It's close to the Ducal Palace in Baldur's Gate.

BLack_XIII

Kill Algernon and spoil his skin on the door, its' an evil act. Theft for necessity, is a discutibile act, but not evil. You can do it without any consequence in a good or a evil play.

O_Bruce

I think that virtue mod generally handled things rather well. It would be great if something similar to this was implemented into Enhanced Edition. It is just stupid dream of mine, thought.

BLack_XIII

ZelgadisGW said:

I think that virtue mod generally handled things rather well. It would be great if something similar to this was implemented into Enhanced Edition. It is just stupid dream of mine, thought.

that's a good idea. Reputation and moral like distinct things.

Zafiro

BLack_XIII said:

as all the best rewards come from acting good

Just as it should be:). Not saying I don't agree, more quests are for the best, if well written.

wariisop

@Baldur

What artifact can you get if you sacrifice a character to the Lower Planes?

masterdesbaxter

BLack_XIII said:

Kill Algernon and spoil his skin on the door, its' an evil act. Theft for necessity, is a discutibile act, but not evil. You can do it without any consequence in a good or a evil play.

Um... Theft is evil. Lack of consequence does not change that.

Baldur

@wariisop Well, there's a Soul Reaver +4 you can get I think by sacrificing an animal on a temple to Demogorgon in BG2. Warranted, not so much a sacrifice of a party member or anything, but it's still a blood sacrifice, and it does net you some evil points I recall. Then there's the Blackrazor during your trials in the Abyss, again, you slaughter an innocent genie for it if you want to keep the thing. Or, to preserve your character's stats, you can kill a party member during another trial.

lars_rosenberg

I see a theft as a chaotic act rather than evil.
For example Robin Hood is good but he is a thief... I'd say he's chaotic good.
Robbing Algernon isn't evil. Killing him is evil

Kukaracha

I guess that killing neutral NPCs could be set as a loss of reputation, but the main story will remain good-oriented.

BLack_XIII

lars_rosenberg said:

I see a theft as a chaotic act rather than evil.
For example Robin Hood is good but he is a thief... I'd say he's chaotic good.
Robbing Algernon isn't evil. Killing him is evil

what i thought.

Kukaracha said:

I guess that killing neutral NPCs could be set as a loss of reputation, but the main story will remain good-oriented.

Direct to the point. Why the history should to be good? you're the Bhaalspawn afterall, if you want to follow your father step, the story should at least give the way. Or you must save every damned person on your road for became the new lord of murder?

wariisop

^These are things they can correct with the story in BG 3, for now just adding more evil equipment and maybe some choices is fine with me.

BLack_XIII

wariisop said:

^These are things they can correct with the story in BG 3, for now just adding more evil equipment and maybe some choices is fine with me.

what i hope. Some Evil Choices who make play evil worthy and some evil items(like the perfid human skin in bg 2 XD)

recklessheart

Honestly, I was thinking of creating this threat myself, so I'm obviously eager to agree with the original statement :P
I think being Evil lacks the reward it deserves. Good guys get all the perks. The only exception to this is that in BG2 the evil party members are the best in their respective fields (generally). Even so, a Good guy party would still kick the Evil party's ass, on account of there only being 5 Evil guys including you and Sarevok by ToB.
Wouldn't a merchant sell his goods to you for as cheap a price as he sells them to a hero? After all, he /should/ suspect you might bust him up or even kill him if he doesn't comply.
Few questlines offer a reputation decrease option, only a reputation increase. Although in the original, being Evil and with a low reputation has little purpose, couldn't they still let you have the low reputation for authenticity's sake? I mean... Why is my NE Assassin Bhaalspawn 'Popular', for Heaven's sake?! xD

karpasz

Agree, make evil more playable - add questlines, interjections and such.

Syntia13

Is it considered trolling if I copy&paste my post from a similar thread?
In case it is, I'll just leave links to similar threads I know of:
Evil Alternatives - http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/16352#Comment_16352
Evil Thief - http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/23129/#Comment_23129

You're not alone with your quest to evilness! ;D

To add new content to my previous posts - when you give it some thought, there actually are some quest lines tailored for evil guys - joining with the thiefs' guild in both BG1 and BG2 - I do consider theft (organized theft, no less!) more realm of evil guys, 'cuz, let's not fool ourselves, most thieves are not Robin Hoods robbing the reach and aiding the poor - they are, in fact, robbing the poor to aid themselves, and sometimes killing both poor and reach to aid themselves. (This is very ironic, considering how I stalk Thief4 forums craving any scraps of info, but oh well). I don't recall if there was any rep-loss for joining the guild in BG1, but I'm sure there wasn't one in BG2 - and there should be, I think.
There is helping fishermen, who just want to fish in peace, or helping a young girl who just want's to worship her evil god and drown people in peace. (Which option is better?)
There is killing a man who murdered his family, or delivering man who'd been cursed to a save shelter in temple (which option is crueller? Seriously, which one? After 14 years, I'm still torn about that...)
Help archeologist, kill archologist.
And so on. There were many choices that could be role-played both ways, they just didn't affect reputation, and... and I think it was fine this way, actually... It was my moral choice and investment in the game, rather than chasing a perfect (for me) reputation score.

Still, wouldn't say no to some new evil adventures.

FrozenDervish

I agree the options and rewards for being evil should be much greater than being good or much easier to come by. Reputation on the other hand should be upped regardless of whether an act us good or evil because reputation is based on how many people know you and the deeds good/evil you have done.

Cloutier

There are a lot of Evil options in BG and BG2.

People just don't roleplay and have CG, even LG characters burglarizing for pure cash or assassinating for 500gp.

Stealing Algernon's cloak IS NOT something you are supposed to do if you are of any Good or Lawful alignment.

MilesBeyond

It's better in BG2, where there are a few goodies for evil characters:

Soul Reaver
White Dragon armour
Actually using the Slayer form semi-regularly

Plus, technically, all of chapter 3 is just choosing what kind of evil you want to be.

FrozenDervish

It's not about there not being options it's that there are not enough options, the negatives do not outweigh the gains in comparison, and the loot which should be amazing as most evil creatures are rich and powerful for a reason.

BLack_XIII

There are a lot of Evil options in BG and BG2.

People just don't roleplay and have CG, even LG characters burglarizing for pure cash or assassinating for 500gp.

Stealing Algernon's cloak IS NOT something you are supposed to do if you are of any Good or Lawful alignment.

not to be good or lawful don't mean to be Evil. Steal a damned cloak, like the 90% of loot in BG1, it's a immoral act maybe, but not evil. When a ton of guys want your head for their house, you will take anything can prolong your life. Evil is different: Evil is going in the house of someone and murder him for that item, or take one of the mercenary who wants to kill you, and torture him until they say the name of their chief. Evil is, make an agreement with the boss of the nashkel mine, or take his place after kill him. And so on. I want a damned evil path in BG, a road who take you to became the next lord of murder.

Syntia13 said:

Is it considered trolling if I copy&paste my post from a similar thread?
In case it is, I'll just leave links to similar threads I know of:
Evil Alternatives - http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/16352#Comment_16352
Evil Thief - http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/23129/#Comment_23129

You're not alone with your quest to evilness! ;D

To add new content to my previous posts - when you give it some thought, there actually are some quest lines tailored for evil guys - joining with the thiefs' guild in both BG1 and BG2 - I do consider theft (organized theft, no less!) more realm of evil guys, 'cuz, let's not fool ourselves, most thieves are not Robin Hoods robbing the reach and aiding the poor - they are, in fact, robbing the poor to aid themselves, and sometimes killing both poor and reach to aid themselves. (This is very ironic, considering how I stalk Thief4 forums craving any scraps of info, but oh well). I don't recall if there was any rep-loss for joining the guild in BG1, but I'm sure there wasn't one in BG2 - and there should be, I think.
There is helping fishermen, who just want to fish in peace, or helping a young girl who just want's to worship her evil god and drown people in peace. (Which option is better?)
There is killing a man who murdered his family, or delivering man who'd been cursed to a save shelter in temple (which option is crueller? Seriously, which one? After 14 years, I'm still torn about that...)
Help archeologist, kill archologist.
And so on. There were many choices that could be role-played both ways, they just didn't affect reputation, and... and I think it was fine this way, actually... It was my moral choice and investment in the game, rather than chasing a perfect (for me) reputation score.

Still, wouldn't say no to some new evil adventures.

i've not seen these thread before *_* more evilness is the right road

Moomintroll

Theft isn't evil? what nightmarish parallel dimension did I wake up in?

IchigoRXC

I think theft is considered Chaotic more than evil.