Ironing out my Sorcerer build

Kneller

I've never used a Sorcerer before, but I'm planning one for my next play through. I'll be playing with the canon party, so there are certain spell picks (i.e. remove fear) that can be covered by other spellcasters. There will be a period in BG2 where the Sorcerer will be the only arcane caster. That is, just after the prologue to when I get Imoen back. But, I read some guides on the web and tweaked them to what I think would work with this party. Of course, it's all open to discussion.

Side note, I am planning to max out Int and Wis to get the most out of the Limited Wish/Wish spells.

But, this is what I'm thinking of picking and the order in which I plan to pick.

L1
Friends (He's going to be the party face)
Spook
Chromatic Orb
Protection from Evil
Magic Missile

L2
Mirror Image
Invisibility (I use this more than any other second level spell)
Melf's Acid Arrow
Blur*
Vocalize*

*These two I picked mostly because I couldn't think of anything else to put here.

L3
Remove Magic (Vicky will have Dispel in BG2)
Skull Trap
Slow
Haste
Flame Arrow

L4
Fireshield (Red)*
Greater Malison
Stoneskin
Improved Invisibility
Polymorph Self

*Everyone really talks up this spell, but I never have my spellcasters in melee so I don't know what the big deal is.

L5
Breach
Lower Resistance
Spell Immunity
Animate Dead (this will be picked at L15 so I'll have skeletal warriors right away)
Sunfire

L6*
Protection from Magical Weapons
Protection from Magical Energy
True Sight
Chain Lightning
Death Spell

I'm kinda lost here. I see very little level 6 consensus on the net except for death spell, but I don't know what the big deal is with that one.

L7
Limited Wish (one of my favorite spells)
Khelben's Warding Whip
Project Image
Finger of Death
Mordenkainen's Sword

L8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Pierce Shield
Summon Fiend
Spell Trigger
Power Word: Blind

L9
Time Stop
Wish (my other favorite spell)
Spellstrike
Chain Contingency

nano

It looks to me like you mixed up some solo spell lists with party spell lists.

elminster

Maybe Web or Stinking Cloud for a second level spell.

Kneller

@nano Yeah, I probably did...feel free to correct me.

@elminster Web has been pretty helpful for me in BG1, especially once I get the Spider's Bane. I was actually tempted to go Invisibility, Web, Acid Arrow, Mirror Image, then whatever for level 2.

JLee

My most used 6th level spell is Improved Haste. IH on a couple of dual wielding fighters yields more damage than Chain Lightning.

Who are you planning on having in your BG2 party?

elminster

The thing with the Death spell is that some of the more annoying enemies in SoA are level 8 or lower. You can basically mass kill Mind Flayers (not ToB Mind Flayers, the Alhoon, or Ulitharid), Umber Hulks, Trolls, etc. Plus it will kill off enemy summons. Its far less useful in ToB though. Also you can get a helmet in the Underdark that casts the spell anyways, so its probably not worth a sorceror pick.

Kneller

JLee said:

Who are you planning on having in your BG2 party?

Canon party. In BG1, it will be Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir. For BG2, it will be Jah, Minsc, Yoshi->Imoen, and probably Vicky for a cleric and romance. The last BG2 slot is probably going to be for NPC quest rotation and eventually Sarevok. For both, I'm planning to tweak Imoen into a multiclassed thief/mage.

@elminster so what would you take in place of death spell. But, based on what you said, it seems worth it even if it's just SoA. If so, it should probably be an earlier pick, right?

Lord_Tansheron

General note: I don't think there is any reason at all for a Sorcerer to max out INT. They gain nothing from it at all, and I doubt you plan on getting hit by Mind Flayers a lot. Much more useful to max out something else instead, like CHA for example.

L1: my experience with BG1 is limited, but iirc Sleep is pretty amazing there. Blind is also quite useful, or so I've heard.

L3: I'd pick Haste first, mainly for the convenience. There's isn't a terrible lot to dispel early on, but you walk and walk and walk all day every day. Another L3 I really like is Melf's Minute Meteors, they are much stronger than you'd think! Certainly better than Slow, which is poop soup imo.

L4: Stoneskin > all. This is the No.1 go-to defensive spell, and saves your life on so many occasions. I personally hardly ever use Fireshields at all, and if I do it's more for the fire resistance than anything else.

L6: Improved Haste is a must-pick, it is arguably *the* best mage spell in the entire game. The amount of damage it generates is unreal. I've never used Protection from Magical Energy in my entire life. Scrap it. You can bridge any situation you'd use it in with Spell Immunity (i.e. facing mass Skull Traps or Horrid Wiltings). As people said earlier, Death Spell is also quite useful, likely more so than Chain Lightning.

The rest are pretty okay, some minor things here and there maybe but I guess pick order also depends on party composition and total XP/progression path, as there's some areas where certain spells are more useful.

Kneller

I'm maxing out Int for the Wish spells, which I intend to use more than the average player. They might not be the most powerful, but they're my favorite spells in the game.

Why Improved Haste + Haste? Isn't Improved Haste just a single target haste that doesn't cause fatigue?

I've heard good things about Slow due to the save penalty. I've heard bad things about MMM though due to the wizards' crappy THAC0.

I agree with you on Fireshield. On a F/M maybe, but a back line caster? I'd like to replace it, for sure.

elminster

"I'm maxing out Int for the Wish spells, which I intend to use more than the average player. They might not be the most powerful, but they're my favorite spells in the game."

Wish spells use Wisdom, not intelligence.

elminster

"@elminster so what would you take in place of death spell. But, based on what you said, it seems worth it even if it's just SoA. If so, it should probably be an earlier pick, right?"

If you are going to take it keep it on hand just in case you happen to have to deal with any summoned monsters. Its going to be useful against selective monsters otherwise but most humans you come across will be above level 8.

I would certainly pick Improved Haste before taking it though.

JLee

The biggest difference is that Improved Haste grants 2x APR while Haste grants only +1 APR.

I think slow is a nice CC. I find it to be very useful for a long time, but apparently @Lord_Tansheron has a differing viewpoint, to put it mildly

nano

Kneller said:

@nano Yeah, I probably did...feel free to correct me.

Keep in mind these are my preferences and there are many different ways to build a sorcerer.

1: I don't see the need for PfE when you have V, though it doesn't really matter because I don't cast anything besides Magic Missile.
2: I second El's suggestion of Web. Probably one of the best spells in the game. I use potions and items for invisibility rather than wasting a slot. You get Vocalize for free from the amulet of power.
3: MMM is awesome. I don't understand the love for Flame Arrow myself, it does about the same amount of damage as Skull Trap but only hits one target. I would rather not use my sorcerer to deal single-target damage when I have an entire party.
4: Fire Shield protects you from Insect Plague when you have SCS. Not necessary though and not a great first choice. I like Minor Sequencer. Spider Spawn is nice too.
5: V can cast Animate Dead so I'd leave that for later.
6: Improved Haste is the best party spell in the game. Death Spell is for eliminating summons. I think Chain Lightning sucks. I like Mislead. True Sight is okay but if you have a thief just use Detect Illusions or have your cleric cast it.
7: Finger of Death is pretty meh. I prefer RRR over KWW. LW is really fun.
8: V's Gate is better than Summon Fiend. Not a fan of Pierce Shield as you can do just as well with lower level stuff like RRR.
9: Can't really go wrong with Time Stop and CC.

Kneller

@elminster
I've read that wish spells use both wisdom and intelligence.

@nano
I don't have SCS, so I guess Fireshield is now that much less useful. I've heard good things about Spider Spawn, but the best you get out of it is a sword spider and I beat the crap out of those easy in BG1, nevermind BG2.

Also, I think the love of Flame Arrow comes from being party friendly.

And why RRR over KWW? I figure that KWW will take down three protections and RRR only does one, right?

So, taking all this into consideration. I have this for a spell list. ??? are gaps and I have no idea what to put in these places:

L1
Friends (He's going to be the party face)
Spook
Chromatic Orb
Protection from Evil
Magic Missile

L2
Invisibility
Web
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
???

L3
Remove Magic (Vicky will have Dispel)
Skull Trap
Slow
Haste
Flame Arrow

L4
Greater Malison
Stoneskin
Improved Invisibility
Polymorph Self
???

L5
Breach
Lower Resistance
Spell Immunity
Sunfire
Animate Dead

L6
Improved Haste
???
???
???
???

L7
Limited Wish (one of my favorite spells)
Khelben's Warding Whip
Project Image
Mordenkainen's Sword
???

L8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Pierce Shield
Spell Trigger
Power Word: Blind
???

L9
Time Stop
Wish
Spellstrike
Chain Contingency

Mule72

Here are some spells I think you missed:

Level 1:
Identify is more useful than you think, especially if your sorcerer has a Ring of Wizardry. Protection from evil can easily be cast on the whole party with by a cleric (Protection 10 radius).

Level 2:
Glitterdust is an amazing spell. It blinds enemies in a small radius, does not affect party members, and reveals invisibility!

Level 3:
I agree with others; MMM is pretty good spell here.

Level 4:
Emotion is a great AoE disable. One of my most used spells. I would highly consider it. Enemies often fail the save.

Level 5:
Looks good

Level 6:
Looks good (I would consider Improved haste > Chain Lightning as others have mentioned).

Level 7:
I would take Ruby Ray over Khelben's Warding Whip. I find it more useful against high level enemies (Liches)

Level 8:
Consider Incendiary Cloud. Amazing damage. Summon fiend isn't really as great a summon as Mordenkainen's Sword even.

Level 9:
Looks good.

Lord_Tansheron

On RRR vs. KWW: if you're not using SCS, then it probably doesn't really matter. With SCS though I'd take KWW every time, since mages tend to be smart and re-cast protections over and over, as well as start with several already up.

On Wish: I seem to remember someone testing it, and basically proving (or at least showing strong indications) that INT does not in fact influence the outcome, only WIS. I know from personal experience that with high WIS only I had no trouble at all getting the wishes I want.

Bercon

Lord_Tansheron said:

L3: I'd pick Haste first, mainly for the convenience. There's isn't a terrible lot to dispel early on, but you walk and walk and walk all day every day. Another L3 I really like is Melf's Minute Meteors, they are much stronger than you'd think! Certainly better than Slow, which is poop soup imo.

Slow halves enemies APR (if they are above 1 anyway), gives them 4 thac0 and armor class penalty and you get 4 saving throw penalty against it. How is that bad? You can actually hit something with it even in ToB.

Lord_Tansheron

It's bad because it's not a guaranteed thing. I don't like wasting spells to saving throws, not unless their effects are PHENOMENAL. While Slow's effect is certainly okay, it's just not powerful enough. You can just use some other form of CC/debuff instead, and pick Haste which is always useful.

Bercon

And MMM is a sure thing with Mages thac0?

nano

@Kneller. Good thing you're not the one fighting the sword spider
Try webbing your enemies first. The spider can walk through webs.

RRR is the lowest level spell that can take down Spell Trap. You don't always want to blow a 9th level Spellstrike on it and most of the time it's as good as Pierce Shield. KWW is like 3 Secret Words, so it's used for just bashing through protections. It's a different role, but not as useful as RRR in my opinion. Which spell breakers you want depends on your strategy vs mages.

meagloth

Lvl1:
Sleep first. You will need it in the beginning.
Identify instead of protection from evil. Other than that, good.
Lvl2:
Glitterdust, instead of vocalize. I would slip horror in There to, instead of invisibility. Potions are cheap.
Lvl3:
Ghost armour instead of haste. Others can carry this because it's a buff. Only one cast.
I've never really used slow but I probly should.
Lvl4:
Stoneskin first. Hands down best 4th lvl spell, maybe best in game. Also, spiderspawn instead of fireshield. Very useful for a sorcerer, spiderspawn. Fireshield is specialized enough that it can be hande led by scrolls.
Lvl5:
Looks good.
Lvl6:
Looks good, but get death spell first. It will be very useful at first, and then really not much. Essentially high level sleep. Improved haste somerwere in there too.
Lvl7:
I'm not a huge fan of wish spells, but that's because last time I played a sorcerer In bg2, I had 3 wis, but if you want, go for it.
Lvl8:
looks fine.
Lvl9:
Looks like you only have 4 spells picked out here, so I would ad on shapechange, and replace spell strike with imp. Alacrity.
If I'm missing something here, tell me. I've never really played ToB much, and I don't know the high level spells very well. I almost always play a sorcerer in bg1 though.

Bercon

You'll never get 5th spells for levels 8 and 9. At level 31 (cap) you'll get your 5th level 7 spell.

EDIT: And Improved Alacrity is HLA, 10th level spell (occupies 9th level spell slots) which you always get for "free", it is on top of the 4 spells you can pick.

PugPug

Replace Chromatic Orb with a more useful level 1 spell, like Infravision.

Eudaemonium

PugPug said:

Replace Chromatic Orb with a more useful level 1 spell, like Infravision.

Man, don't say this shit while I'm eating.

Bercon

Chromatic Orb is better on levels 1-2 than Magic Missile because most creatures fail the save half of the time. Even 3-4 it is on par with Magic Missile, at level 5 it starts to lose because creatures usually get the save and Magic Missile has 3 missiles. You can still use it with Greater Mallision (-4+6=+2 save bonus only). Still, in BG2:EE it remains useful because you can use it to kill trolls which Magic Missile can't do.

Btw, since pretty much everybody had Sunfire on level 5, it no longer goes through magic resistances. That bug has been fixed. I think it is still worth the pick thought, because there aren't other good damage dealing options on level 5 (Cone of Frost has a chance of destroying loot).

shawne

If you're taking Wish, be sure to have high INT/WIS scores...

Bercon

For Wish spell you need 18 wisdom. Higher doesn't give you any benefit and Intelligence has nothing to do with the outcomes. So you can start with just 15 wisdom and read the 3 tomes around BG:EE to get to 18.

mackos

L1 sield is very useful because it protects you from magic missle, i would switch spook for that . And sleep is just great for BG1
L2 i would switch blur for horror, especially useful in BG1.
L3 everything is fine here but choose flame arrow in BG 2 where it really starts to shine
L4 switch polymorf for ice storm. It bypasses mirror image, Minor Globe of Invulnerability spell turning and stoneskin. Very good spell untill you hit mid game, especially in SCS BG1
L5 chaos for sunfire !!

Higer levels depends on your playstyle and party members. Just one hint - you can replace true sight by free detect illusion which your thief (Hexxatatxt) will develop eventually

elminster

mackos said:

L1 sield is very useful because it protects you from magic missle, i would switch spook for that .

Spook gets better with levels and Shield doesn't. It means you'll have less protections initially but its not worth the loss.

mackos said:

sunfire for chaos !!

I'd go with Hold Monster or Chaos over Sunfire. At the point where you are getting level 5 spells you aren't likely to find yourself lacking means to deal out damage as a sorceror and frankly I think its always a good thing to have a few more controlling spells available. I'm not a fan of Chaos (I like monsters to stay put) but a -4 penalty to save against it isn't too shabby.

As for the OP's current choices I'd also make Stoneskin the first spell you get at level 4. Other than Mirror Images (or perhaps the shield amulet) you don't have any protections at this point. Take Greater Malison as your second spell.

I can't say I would ditch Polymorph Self in favour of of Ice Storm. Even if it is good at stopping enemy mages from casting there are probably alternatives out there (like Silence or Jaheira's Insect Plague) that would be more effective at that. Plus the Mustard Jelly form is pretty wicked. Might I suggest instead that you ditch improved invisibility in favour of a Minor Sequencer instead? There are rings that you can use to cast Improved Invisibility on yourself in BG2 and to be honest you can also eventually just get Imoen to cast it on your character. Plus you'll have Stoneskin.

mackos

elminster said:

mackos said:

L1 sield is very useful because it protects you from magic missle, i would switch spook for that .

Spook gets better with levels and Shield doesn't. It means you'll have less protections initially but its not worth the loss.

mackos said:

sunfire for chaos !!

I'd go with Hold Monster or Chaos over Sunfire. At the point where you are getting level 5 spells you aren't likely to find yourself lacking means to deal out damage as a sorceror and frankly I think its always a good thing to have a few more controlling spells available. I'm not a fan of Chaos (I like monsters to stay put) but a -4 penalty to save against it isn't too shabby.

i meant switching sunfire for chaos and I of course agree with you!

Silence is not that good on SCS, every mage has vocalaize spell. And yes insect plaque is better in vanilla but again in SCS mages often precast fireshield which protects them from that spell. That's why i prefer ice storm

nano

Isn't Hold Monster's radius tiny? I think Emotion is more useful in general.

I like Chaos as well. If you don't mind save or else spells it's quite effective. The important thing is that it keeps casters from casting and it pierces most spell protections that lower level casters use, so early on in BG2 it can take out a lot of threats. Don't expect to disarm a lich or anything, though.

The biggest attraction of sunfire is its use against magic resistance, but with the new patch that's no longer a factor. Shame... Still, it pierces the globe spells which is one less spell protection to worry about.