Playing a Bard.

EntropyXII

Hey guys,

I have only played a Bard once before on the BG games and that is when I rage quit after Nashkel after I realised I had pumped charisma and kept intelligence rather low (been playing NWN a little too much). I thought this time I should ask for advice before I continue.

1) What kits should I use, if any? I'll be honest - I have a hard time not choosing a kit nowadays as vanilla classes seem so bland in comparison. I do not like the idea of playing a Jester, Haer'dalis is already a Blade and the Skald is a bit too 'Nordic' for me to really justify growing up in Candlekeep. I like the idea of the 'Gallant' but unfortunately it is not available yet (I think).

Are there any decent mods for Bard kits out there? I know the 'Song and Silence' mod has a few, and I like the look of 'Dirgesinger' but I don't know how compatible it is with BG:EE, or how compatible is will be with any up and coming patches.

What are the chances of any more Bard kits being included in further updates/patches?

2) Do you play a Bard as a battle-rogue with some magical ability or as a mage with some combat ability/thief skills? I am at a loss really. Is it logical to spend most battles singing or does it get boring? - being the main-protagonist child of murder and all.

Thanks for any help guys!

Souldancertn

Skald is great as a party buffer and spell slinger/crowd control. I usually made my skald an archer and the +1 to damage and to hit is good for that.
Blade is a bit squishy at first, but is good enough to go toe to toe soon enough when you have some decent protection spells. Don't expect a fighter or fighter/mage, but I've never had any complaints.
I've not had much experience with the jester since I really don't use the bard song all that much.

Corvino

I guess it depends on what you want. Skalds are pretty much just a better version of the vanilla Bard and I see no (non-RP) reason not to use a Skald instead of an unkitted bard. For stat allocation, going with a similar distribution to a F/M seems a good bet.

Blades are very similar to F/Ms in terms of playstyle, from what I gather. They're the most melee orientated of all bards due to the possibility of using two-weapon fighting effectively and their spins. They're also the most powerful bard kit for most of the saga, and Improved Bard Song means they have minimal downsides compared to unkitted.

In answer to 2) it probably depends on the kit. Blades are going to lean toward a melee role with casting used to protect them from damage and enhance offense, like a F/M. Other Bards are more likely to be at range, and hence have a more supporting ranged weapon & bardsong use. I can see a Skald being pretty useful when singing if you have a very melee-orientated party, when the hit and damage bonuses will apply to as many NPCs as possible. In any case, they're going to require a good deal of micromanagement.

StoneSwords

If you prefer the fighterish type of bard, then blade is the way to go. His bard song doesn't improve, and his pick pocket is only like 1/4 of the vanilla bard, but his offensive/defensive spin, and the fact that he automatically gets 3 points in 2 weapon fighting make up for that

Corvino

@StoneSwords Blades don't automatically get 3 points in TWF, they need to spend them from their normal proficiency points. Arguably this means they shouldn't be dual-wielding until level 4 when they can be proficient with a weapon and have 2 points in TWF.

EntropyXII

What about any mods? any good ones out there, or good ones being worked on?

About Skald's, well... I nitpick quite a lot. It's the description that I don't like really. It makes me sound completely irrational and I know I certainly am. "This Nordic bard..."

jackjack

Rogue Rebalancing is almost a must for me.

EntropyXII

I have this one installed. Definitely a must - but any good kits out there? How incompatible is song and silence?

Corvino

Well, I'm pretty sure that Sendai (the arrogant Amnish noble, not the Drow) refers to the party as "Northern Berserkers" if you pick a fight with her. Could be taken to be a bit Nordic.

If you want a roleplaying aspect then consider that Candlekeep is a huge library, and will have volumes of sagas detailing ancient battles in verse. Your PC could be singing tales of battle that s/he learned at Gorion's knee.

StoneSwords

@Corvino thanks for the correction, I haven't picked a bard in years. I think I was confusing it with the swashbuckler who does get an automatic 3 pips in TWF, right?

Eudaemonium

@StoneSwords, I think Blade gets 3 pips automatically with the Rogue Rebalancing mod. Did you use that at all?

Swashbuckler doesn't in vanilla BG to my knowledge.

EntropyXII

Another question: Are there special instruments you can get in BG:EE? it's been a very long time since I have gotten very far in BG and so I don't remember much.

What I mean is: Lutes only bards can use, or a harp perhaps?

element

you can obtain a harp from ulgoths beards shop as far as I know its the only instrument in the first game

also for anyone that might know, does the vanilla bards song improve as he levels up? and if so what does it do ive heard varying things about this but not really ever seen anything definitive

StoneSwords

@Eudaemonium That probably is it right there. there's just certain mods I can't play without, and that's one of them, so my vanilla knowledge might be a little rusty at this point lol

Eudaemonium

element said:

you can obtain a harp from ulgoths beards shop as far as I know its the only instrument in the first game

There's also the Horn of Kazgaroth, but I think anyone might be able to use that. It is an instrument of some kind, though.

LordRumfish

1. I have the most experience with a jester, but from that experience I can tell you that you might just miss the parts of bard that skald and blade give up. Pickpocket is a useful talent to have and lore skill is also quite handy. Jesters don't give up these aspects of bard, and I know I would miss them if I played a skald or a blade. If you really, really don't want to be a jester then I might humbly suggest trying an unkitted bard for this reason.

2. I tended to play my jester as a battle-rogue with some magical ability. I probably should have gotten Dorn long enough to do his questline for the elven chainmail, but I didn't bother and I ended up using some chainmail +3 from Durlag's Tower. The mage spells I had prepped were for mage battles, since you don't really need AC for those I would just take my armor off and run in with my Minor Globe of Invulnerability and Remove Magic and other-such nonsense. I would also keep a cast or two of Invisibility up if I wanted to be snarky and do the jester song trick, although to be completely honest I only used that in two zones in the entirety of BG:EE just to see if it would work (I would also occasionally sing my jester song for battle non-invisibly, but that was also rare). I had my proficiencies in Longbow, Two-Handed Sword, Halberd and Two-Handed Weapon Style (Veraka is the "go big or go home" type of jester).

I played her game on Normal difficulty and ended the game with 86 HP (6 from familiar) so she was quite capable of standing in the breach when Minsc or Tiax needed a break.

nano

Is there a trick to sing and fight at the same time, like being able to detect illusions and fight?

StoneSwords

Nope, that's one thing about bards, they can either sing or do something else, but not both

Luigirules

There are a couple of cool bard kits in the BGEE kitpack, found in the mod forum.

Though from what I've been hearing, kit mods don't work with 1.2 at the moment.

nano

Aw, I can't crush someone into a mangled bloody pulp while singing a jaunty tune to accompany their unanswered cries for mercy?

Cowled_wizard

unless you use mislead or simulacrum

jackjack

A man can dream.

StoneSwords

nano said:

Aw, I can't crush someone into a mangled bloody pulp while singing a jaunty tune to accompany their unanswered cries for mercy?

You forgot to add with a creepy smile all at the same time lol :P

Madhax

My vote is for Blade in first place and every other bard kit in lower-than-last place.

Personal preference, of course, but I can't stand the idea of the main character of the saga just sitting around singing while everyone else does stuff. The Bhaalspawn should be more than a static buff. Yeah, bards get other stuff too, but I've never found the right balance; I'm either playing a gimp mage, a bad archer, or I'm singing about Sir Robin running away while everyone else gets their hands dirty.

Blades are badasses. You function like a variant of a fighter/mage that eventually gets Rogue HLAs and can reach minimum AC.

Corvino

I remember hearing about "song twisting" or something similar ages ago. As I recall it uses the same idea as casting then attacking with a mage to take 2 sets of actions per round.

The song buff, once applied lasts for 1 round. So you should be able to sing then attack, then rinse and repeat next round.

nano

Corvino said:

I remember hearing about "song twisting" or something similar ages ago. As I recall it uses the same idea as casting then attacking with a mage to take 2 sets of actions per round.

The song buff, once applied lasts for 1 round. So you should be able to sing then attack, then rinse and repeat next round.

Thanks, that got me some results. So as long as you're singing by the end of the round, you'll get the bonuses for the next round?

Corvino

Not 100% sure. It's a little cheesy and a definite attempt to have your cake and eat it too, so I've never tried too hard to make it work.

It might be worth a feature request to change Bardsong to more like PnP where you sing before combat and then get buffs for a time period dependent on the Bard's level.

element

Eudaemonium said:

element said:

you can obtain a harp from ulgoths beards shop as far as I know its the only instrument in the first game

There's also the Horn of Kazgaroth, but I think anyone might be able to use that. It is an instrument of some kind, though.

for some reason I never put 2 and 2 together and realised that was an instrument I thought it was just a horn but im pretty sure one can use it

Time4Tiddy

EntropyXII said:

About Skald's, well... I nitpick quite a lot. It's the description that I don't like really. It makes me sound completely irrational and I know I certainly am. "This Nordic bard..."

Of course what's more annoying is describing a person as Nordic when that really relates only to countries on this planet, nothing on Faerun/Aber-Toril. So the description is more of a metaphor, really, right? I mean, do they have vikings on the Sword Coast?

LordRumfish

Time4Tiddy said:

EntropyXII said:

About Skald's, well... I nitpick quite a lot. It's the description that I don't like really. It makes me sound completely irrational and I know I certainly am. "This Nordic bard..."

Of course what's more annoying is describing a person as Nordic when that really relates only to countries on this planet, nothing on Faerun/Aber-Toril. So the description is more of a metaphor, really, right? I mean, do they have vikings on the Sword Coast?

I'd play that game. In all seriousness though, they should avoid using real-world locations to describe Faerun concepts unless they are couching it in a phrase like "this bard has roots from the barbarian tribes in the Spine of the World mountains (a Nord-like people)". That would be OK because you can't expect the players to automatically know what the cultures of Faerun are like.

EntropyXII

@Time4Tiddy @LordRumfish - I mean.. Warrior/Bard would suffice as a description.. won't it? I mean, I know it is only one word in a description which I will never see again but it kind of manipulates my entire mindset when I try to play a Skald. I have always been quietly proud of my FR knowledge, so when I see the word 'Nordic' it just irritates me to no end. I can't shake it. I know the chances of the dev's ever changing it is quite low, but would it be so difficult to do?

Abeir-Toril does have viking sorts - they come from an Island called Ruathym. They raided, raped and pillaged their way onto the Sword Coast. The Icewind Dale barbarians and the Uthgardt Barbarians are directly descended (or at least culturally influenced) by these bad boys.