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Balanced NPC Party (ahead of BG2EE)

SevSev Member Posts: 17
Hi all,

I've been playing BG2 since it came out, and thought I'd share what is to my mind a really wonderful party. I enjoy playing as this group both from a power-gaming perspective, but also in terms of playability (no waiting on dual-classes, no fiddling to make do without a thief, access to all forms of magic, all party members available early). It might not be the MOST powerful party possible, but I think it strikes just the right balance between fun and fighting ability. I can also see how some of the parts are interchangeable enough to fit in some of the new characters from EE (especially Dorn and Hexxat), though I quite like it as is.

Anyway, here goes:

Tank: Korgan (axe/shield - tho dual wielding w/ the Defender of Easthaven is a possibility for the damage absorption)

Flanks:
Haer'Dalis (dual wielding long swords - or short swords if EE removes his 2 proficiencies in LS from ToB)
Anomen (dual wielding the Crom Faeyr + FoA)

Centre:
Yoshimo > Imoen (staff/shortbow)

Back:
F/M/T (Carsomyr/xbows)
Jaheira (spears/sling)

This party nails Sixofspades rules for the balanced party (http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/bgguide.htm):

1) Ideally, the party should be at least half Warrior.
2) Every solidly balanced party needs—note that I said needs—a good Thief, or at the very least a third of one.
3) Ideally, the party should have high-level access to both sides of the Priest scroll; both Cleric and Druid spells.
4) Ideally, the party should be between 15% and 25% Wizard, and be able to cast from all 8 Schools of magic.

Furthermore, every party should have a tank. The tank needs to have high constitution (soaking up damage), high dex (for armour, though this becomes less important in ToB where you get hit anyway), and (perhaps most crucially) good saving throws.

Dwarves and Halflings get the best saves, although gnomes can be viable as well.

This means that only Korgan, Mazzy and PC generated characters are properly viable as Tanks. Other characters can do it, but not as effectively as Korgan or Mazzy.

Everyone barring Imoen can hold their own in hand to hand combat. The F/M/T can handle most of the thievery, with HD able to do the pickpocketing. Jaheira and Anomen are cover both sides of the priest scroll, and in Imoen, HD and the F/M/T you have a really nice balance of wizardry.

The other thing that is really important to me, and that often gets overlooked in "perfect party" type threads is the actual tactical/spatial distribution of the party. My preference is to use the formation which puts the tank out-front on his own (Korgan is the best in the game in this role), then a band of 3 behind, and then a band 2 two behind that. In this way, your two flank attackers in the band of 3 have easy access (it's ideal if these characters are dual wielding), while the band of 2 uses two-handed weapons that they can use to hit over the top. Imoen, the only non-fighter, is safe in the middle of the party, and can fire away with spells and her bow.

It also makes sense for your tank to be a pure fighter (if they were casting spells then they'd get sucked to the back), and for your more powerful spellcasters to do double duty as archers (so as to get the right balance between people going forward and hanging back). With this layout, you can send Korgan in first while everyone else (!) can cast spells. Then the flank attackers can advance, while the back 3 (Imoen, Jah, PC) fire a salvo of missiles. They then have the option to cast more spells, or (in the cases of Jah and the PC) can also wade in with their 2h weapons. They're also able to protect Imoen from attacks from the rear if the party is boxed in, and everyone but Imoen can hold their own in single combat if need be.

A special word for HD. One of the more maligned characters in the game, he really stitches this party together. One of the less well known things about Bards is that because they level as rogues they will be of higher levels than mages of comparable XP. This means that they are able to reap the full benefits of spells like Animate dead (you need to be level 15 to get the desireable Skeleton Warrior summon). This makes him a nice compliment to my F/M/T, who will be of relatively low mage level comparatively. As such, I gear our casting regimes around these characters. HD fires spells whose damage scales by level, while the PC focuses on spells that are good irrespective of the level of the caster. He gets 2 stars in swords, and can be augmented with the gauntlet of fortitude, which means that the main knock against HD (low constitution) also becomes less of an issue. He's never going to be as good a fighter as a warrior of similar level, but his access to spells is invaluable. Yes, I'd rather have a F/M, but BG2 doesn't offer us any F/M NPCs, and I'd rather have 3 spellcasters than Imoen and my F/M/T and a fighter (Valygar, say, who at least gets a few arcane spells, tho NOT stoneskin). You could possibly run a F/M as your PC instead, and pick up the ToB NPC (or Dorn), but then you're down a mage, and have to rely on Imoen for your thieving (do-able, but fiddly). You also lose access to Carsomyr unless you want to dual the ToB NPC, but frankly it's quite annoying having to wait for him to level back up so late in the game. I guess Hexxat might be an option instead of HD as well, but I doubt she'll be able to be a better fighter him. Still, this is probably the area in the party where the most flexibility is. The alternative is perhaps to replace Anomen/Jaheira with a PC as a Ranger/Cleric multiclass, but then it becomes difficult to get as much arcane casting as I like to have while still keeping the party flexible (ie. as many as possible party members being able to both fight+spellcast).

The party also uses most of the game's best weapons. I'm aware that new equipment in EE may necessitate a re-think, but as things stand I think this party does pretty well. Korgan handles axes, and tanks with either a shield or DoE. Anomen dual wields with the classic FoA/CF, while HD has all of the long and short swords in the game at his disposal. The party also nails the perfect distribution of ranged weapons. Because you can only upgrade one bow/Xbow with Cespenar, giving Imoen the bow of Gesen, and then having an upgraded Firetooth feels like a nice balance to me (although if preferred the PC can use the Darkfire bow, I can't remember which of the two is more powerful). Jaheira then uses the sling of seeking, and deals out extra damage via a strength belt. The game lacks good longbows, so unless a better one is provided in EE, having 3 ranged characters using sling/xbow/shortbow is the way to go. The only thing that isn't quite perfect is that Jaheira has to go with a Spear rather than the more powerful Halberds available. Still, this isn't too much of a step down, particularly as the Ravager loses some of its edge in boss fights (as bosses are immune to its insta-kill). Otherwise, the weapon distribution is well balanced. The only other real omission is the lack of Katanas for SoA, but given the cheesy nature of the Celestial Fury I'm not too fussed about this.

Another thing I really appreciate is that you can easily collect all the NPCs without having to leave Amn. I tend to let Minsc die at the hands of the Mephits in Irenicus' dungeon, and then roll on with Yoshi and Jaheira, then pick up Anomen and Korgan immediately after my exit. HD is the only one who requires any extra work, but even he is available in Amn. This gives you the option of easily rushing to Imoen before doing any side-quests. This is generally my preference, both from a power-gaming perspective, but also from a role-playing one (why would you muck about in Trademeet, or go dragon Slaying with/for Mazzy, when you've already got the $ to rescue Imoen?).

Finally, I really like the party balance and interactions. I play as a good-ish leaning CN, in a manner not dissimilar to the persona of Anomen once he fails the test, which makes sense given that I romance him. The journey of Anomen's character as C/N is quite well written and thought out, and I find him a much more "good" person in this guise (he's quite an enjoyable romance). There's a bit of sniping, but none of the characters will leave/fight because of the others. Furthermore, their personalities actually feel quite compatible to me (even though there's a mix of good/neutral/evil). Jaheira is a must for me in BG2, as she's both a really strong NPC (esp. in ToB, where she really comes into her own), and of course has the longest and most rewarding side-quest (no, you don't have to be romanced with her to complete it, and in fact (if I remember correctly) it is completed much more quickly if you aren't). I appreciate HD's weird nihilism (though some of his poetry & aggressive flirting not so much), and feel he also meshes well with the C/N leanings of the party. As the PC's sister, Imoen goes along with pretty much anything, so no problems there (I generally find the game weird without her, unless you're playing HARD evil, in which case ditching her makes a bit more sense), and she's also quite powerful (I take her superior stats and bow-use over Edwin any day of the week). Korgan is probably the odd one out but I'll take him over the Lawful Good Mazzy. His proficiencies also fit better (Mazzy overlaps w/ HD somewhat), and even though he's a bit of a psycho, he's not evil to the core in the way that Edwin is (Korgan feels more like Neutral Evil than CE to me).

Wow, that ended up being really long. Anyway, curious to hear people's thoughts, and whether anyone can produce a party as balanced on all fronts as this. In particular, if there's a combination of characters (only NPCS + 1PC please) which simultaneously contains 5 spellcasters (inc. both sides of the priest scroll) and 5 capable hand-to-hand fighters I'd love to hear it.

Post edited by Sev on

Comments

  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    Needs more wizards and less warriors.
  • SevSev Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2013
    Imoen (basically a full wizard), HD and the F/M/T not enough? If there's any problem it's that you only have 1 char with level 9 spells. I guess the most straightforward alternative is to switch the PC to a F/M , who is perhaps a little more powerful, but you lose Carsomyr and have to get by with Imoen as your thief. Trade-off is between power and playability/balance here, so a matter of preference really.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    No Keldorn? He destroys mages who are the toughest opponents in the game. Sure his dex is terrible, but someone needs to wear the gauntlets of dexterity.

    I think your party is also pretty low on mages. Imoen is always significantly behind on experience due to missing out on chapters 2-4. And FMT is very slow to get the higher spell levels in a full party (so slow that for practical purposes they cap out at about 7th level spells).
  • SevSev Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2013
    Keldorn is a no go with Korgan if I remember correctly (I think they fight). He also doesn't fit well with Anomen, as Anomen needs the gauntlets of dexterity too. Furthermore, the F/M/T, who has access to Carsomyr, can actually provide much of what Keldorn does. Regardless, who would you replace him with? He can't tank, Anomen and Jaheira provide both sides of the spell scroll, and the and HD and the F/M/T provide much needed magic (going down to only two arcance spellcasters is definitely too low).

    Agree with it being slightly low on mages. As I said above, ideally you have two casters able to hit level 9, but if you go straight to Imoen after gathering your party (I've done this) she actually doesn't end up behind by much at all, and in a cou. Still, if it's a concern just swap out the F/M/T for a F/M, and use Imoen as your Thief.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    True balance must take in account of other important things. Recruit 3 shorties (Korgan, Mazzy and Jan) and 3 regular folks (Vicky, Imoen and male elven ranger PC). Now you have nice diversity of gender, race, alignment and class.
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    edited November 2013
    karnor00 said:

    No Keldorn? He destroys mages who are the toughest opponents in the game. Sure his dex is terrible, but someone needs to wear the gauntlets of dexterity.

    I think your party is also pretty low on mages. Imoen is always significantly behind on experience due to missing out on chapters 2-4. And FMT is very slow to get the higher spell levels in a full party (so slow that for practical purposes they cap out at about 7th level spells).

    @Sev Keldorn is a good point in this discussion. He has HP, he works as a pseudo-caster in terms of ripping through magical defenses, and paladins get a +2 save bonus on all saves. Couple that with the fact that fighter-types get the best end-game saves anyway and Keldorn is not behind other tanks at all.

    Anyhow... let me take up your gauntlet to see about crafting a balanced party.

    I always start by looking at the multi-class characters when I want party balance. Jan Jansen is your only sure-fire thief (before Hexxat) since Imoen and Nalia have some hoops to jump through and Yoshimo... yeah. Jan covers your thief needs and also offers arcane spells other than Necromancy up through 9th level. He is not a tank but, like any mage, he could fake it.

    Next is Aerie (I am choosing them based on utility, your CN party may have other needs). She covers all cleric spells, and she picks up the Necromancy spells that Jan can't cast. At this point your arcane power is covered and anything beyond is icing on the cake. Again, Aerie is not a tank but you could buff her to stand in the breach if there was a pressing need.

    Jaheira still seems like a good choice, she has HP, tanking ability, druid spells, all that and more. At this point you have also covered any divine casting needs the group might have.

    Lest I get too clever for my own good, I pick Keldorn next. He has obvious utility against spellcasters, is a serviceable tank as I mentioned earlier, and he shouldn't end up killing the people I've already mentioned. We have two frontline fighters at this stage (Keldorn can be the primary tank due to improved saves/extra immunities), and more dispels than you can shake a stick at.

    Slot number 5 is flexible. If your CHARNAME fills in with a melee role, you've met the quota you said you prefer for fighter-types (3 out of 6). You could push this further to having 4 out of 6 by picking any number of NPCs: Anomen, Haer'Dalis, Mazzy, Minsc, Valygar... Korgan? Sarevok? You might also make such a choice if your CHARNAME does not meet a fighter role. If your CHARNAME is any part thief then you ease up Jan's requirements considerably. If the CHARNAME is any part caster then you will be awash in spell options. If you think 3 fighters are enough and CHARNAME is one, then... take anyone you want. No, really. I've met or exceeded the desired requirements with 5 members at that point, so a sixth member takes you in whatever direction you'd like to go after that.


    EDIT: This is not, by the way, going to be the first party I take through BG2:EE. It is mechanically sound, and would have good banter if Minsc is the 5th NPC, but... let's just say effectiveness isn't always my number 1 reason for party construction. Like you, I'm taking a CN character through (a jester) and her needs revolve around NPCs who are mentally unstable and/or are very amusing to her.
    Post edited by LordRumfish on
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I disagree with some of the rules, but bear in mind that this may be colored by my playstyle/mods.

    Having both divine sides covered is unnecessary. There are useful spells on both sides but they're not indispensable and both druids and clerics get stuff like Chaotic Commands. I prefer cleric here because Prot Evil 30 and Resist Fear are handy.

    Half warrior results in a pretty squishy party (yes, seriously) unless you have some multiclasses in there. The main thing you're looking for from a warrior is dps because even the tankiest of warriors won't outlast a buffed mage and summons fill the meat-shield role just fine. For this reason I would favor damage (dual wielding) or utility (someone to swing Carsomyr) over a permanent shield fighter. There are some useful shields but you can swap them in as situation dictates (and certainly don't spend points on the style).

    The more arcane magic you can throw out the easier your life will be. 15% is really pushing it and 25% would be my minimum. Similarly, the more spell counters you can pack the easier your life will be, so Inquisitors, Detect Illusions and casters are welcome additions to the party.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    My issue with Korgan is that he doesn't really bring anything special to the party. Grandmastery in axes and shorty saves is about it. And the only really good axe is Unyielding +5 which doesn't come along until very late in ToB.

    Keldorn on the other hand brings a very powerful dispel and true sight. His paladin save bonuses and inquisitor immunities pretty much compensate for the shorty saves.

    Jaheira is a good choice but I would her in the front line rather than at the back with spears/sling. She has good dexterity, can wear heavy armor and can cast ironskins. All of which make her one of the best tanks in the game.

    Anomen vs Aerie is a tough one. Both provide clerical abilities but Anomen provides tank/melee damage vs mage spells for Aerie. Really it depends on the PC for which the party needs more of.

    Imoen is another tough choice. Imoen is great - full power mage plus trap/lock clearing skills. But misses out on chapters 2-4 (well half of chapter 4). But it just feels wrong not taking her along.

    Edwin is the clear choice for a pure mage - he just has so many more spells that anyone else can get.

    For the PC I'd have to go Kensai > Mage. Since you specified not waiting around for dual classes to level up that would mean dualling at 7 (which is a miniscule slowdown).


    Overally I'd probably go for
    Keldorn
    Jaheira
    Aerie
    Edwin
    Yoshimo > Imoen
    PC : Kensai(7) > Mage


    It's very heavy on mage artillery, but they are definitely the most powerful class in the game.
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    PC: Berserker 9>Mage
    Jan
    Aerie
    Keldorn
    Anomen

    It's a versatile party with an open slot for NPC quests: 3 arcane, 2 divine, 3 fighters, and a thief that improves throughout the game.

    I know it is by no means a power gaming argument, but it also really adds flavor when you take Nalia along for her quest and Valygar for his, etc. So, I really appreciate having the open last slot.

    I always settle on Mazzy though. Once she is in the party, I cannot drop her :)
  • zerckanzerckan Member Posts: 178
    Sev said:

    Keldorn is a no go with Korgan if I remember correctly

    It's Keldorn x Viconia
    Korgan x Aerie
  • SevSev Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2013
    Lots of good stuff here, thanks for all the responses. I'm really excited about EE, so it's nice to be able to think about possible party permutations ahead of the game.

    @Nano, I agree with a lot of what you say. Especially concur that this is all definitely a matter of preference and play-style. Six's rules are there as a starting-point/guideline rather than something fixed, for sure (it's probably more a minimum set of requirements rather than a maximum). Personally, I like to have as many party members as possible being able to be capable fighters (ideally I'd have 5 or even all 6 be able to do this). I completely agree that Multi-classes rule (esp. in ToB), particularly because of the HLAs (esp. fighter ones for high DPS) and diminishing returns for single classes. It's a real shame that there aren't any warrior/* multi-classes other than Jaheira.

    I'd add to your warrior requirements a desire for flexibility, as well as a balance between dual wielding, 2-handed style and ranged weapons. In my party above everyone can go ranged if need be (HD with Melf's, Anomen w/ a sling and Korgan with thrown weapons to compliment the backline) There are many situations in the game where you fight in narrow spaces, and it's difficult to get a whole party of close range fighters landing hits simultaneously. I reckon the ideal balance of weapon styles is a shield carrying tank (or DoE), 2 flank attackers dual wielding, and then everyone else using 2h weapons to hit over the top.

    The reason I like both sides of divine is the anti-spellcasting stuff available to druids (esp. the insect swarms, which are kryptonite to spellcasters). You also get the fire elemental (great in the early/mid-game), and greater elemental summons in ToB. Not essential, but definitely handy, and given how good Jaheira is there's pretty much no reason not to have her along (if I don't, it's probably because my PC is a ranger/cleric multi).

    @karnor00 The Kensai > Mage is strong, but losing out on the Warrior HLAs is a huge minus. I'll take a F/M or F/M/T multi-class because of this.

    I also completely disagree about Korgan not bringing much. He has the best saves, the best constitution (and therefore the most HP). The axes in SoA are perfectly viable, and available very early on. The other thing he has which you've overlooked is berserker rage. This makes him immune to level drain, as well as imprisonment. The dispel and true sight are nice, but can be compensated for, especially in a party with 3 arcane spellcasters (and anyway, if spellcasters get hit with one of the insect swarms it's game over). His dexterity (while not perfect) beats out Keldorn's. This isn't an issue w/ gauntlets of Dex, except that it really weakens Anomen if he doesn't have them. No question that Keldorn is one of the more powerful NPCs, but I'm not sure that he's as vital as you suggest.

    To those suggesting taking combinations that include both Jan/Imoen + Edwin/Aerie, I'm not super keen on these as you lose the hand-to-hand combat balance (your party starts getting "squishy" to use @Nano's expression). I don't like carrying more than 1 non-viable fighter. I guess Aerie is OK (half a cleric), but she can't dual wield.

    The "good" version of the party I proposed above probably looks something like this then (similar to @Jlee's but with Aerie onboard already I reckon Jaheira is a better bet than Anomen - she's a stronger fighter (HLAs!) and provides druid spells):

    Mazzy (tank)
    band of 3:
    Jaheira (flank/dual wield)
    Imoen (or Jan, but how can a good party justify leaving Imoen?)
    PC (F/M or F/M/T? if Imoen's thieving isn't enough) (flank/dual wield)
    backline/band of 2:
    Keldorn (2h)
    Aerie (2h)

    This does look pretty good. Much more access to level 9 arcane spellcasting than my party, especially with the possibility of Aerie firing sequencers combining divine/arcane spells, and strong fighting. I guess you have an individually stronger fighter (Keldorn), but you do lose out on FoA/Crom Faeyr (unless you want to equip the PC with these), and HD's intangibles (lore, bard song etc.). Mazzy isn't quite Korgan's equal (Korgan has rage + better constitution), but there's not much in it (she has better dex).

    I kinda prefer the personalities in my original post, and the fact that they have 5 spellcasters and 5 capable fighters. This party has 4 spellcasters (maybe 4.5 if counting Keldorn's anti-spellcaster stuff) and 4.5 fighters (counting Aerie as a half?). Still, they look pretty good, and I can certainly see myself playing them.

    What do people reckon about Aerie vs HD as fighters? Aerie's clerical buffs would help out quite a bit, so it might be quite close.
    Post edited by Sev on
  • SevSev Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2013
    Oh, and just remembered something else too. HD is another factor that mitigates against the need for Keldorn. Because he's on the rogue table he casts dispel magic/remove magic at very high levels (not as high as Keldorn, but higher than most mages you'll encounter anyway).

    Between him, Jaheira's insect spells (she and Anomen also have access to dispels and true seeing), and the F/M/T (access to Carsomyr via UAI, detect illusions), you can pretty much cover everything he does.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Sev No arguments from me, I favor flexibility in my party members as well. I make heavy use of summons like skeleton warriors so my party isn't as fighter-focused as yours (especially because of the narrow spaces issue when you have 5 skeletons clogging the front line). But the more fighters you have the more damage you do so as long as you have enough spellpower to go around it's not a bad choice.

    Speaking of skeletons, that's another argument I'd throw in in favor of the cleric. I know my mods are a factor here though - Insect Plague is nerfed for me so I find druids much less useful.
  • SevSev Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2013
    @nano Agreed, if I had to choose I'd take a cleric over a druid too (or play as a Ranger/Cleric multi!). But given the absence of F/* multiclasses among the NPCs Jaheira's mix of fighter HLAs, strong stats and rewarding side-quests is pretty hard to overlook. I just take a cleric (usually Anomen, but in the good party above Aerie makes sense) too!
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