Fighter Thief Weapon Proficiency

Felspawn

So i have a Half-Elf Fighter thief that's making this way through the game, about to head into the Cloakwood forest. I have 2 pips into Longswords and 3 in Two Weapon fighting. I was considering picking up the dagger of venom. Is it worth putting pips into Daggers? or will it be wasted as i go into SoA and ToB. Just looking for suggestions on what i should be using

nano

Don't you get to re-pick your proficiencies when you transfer? In any case the melee daggers aren't that great but you could use daggers as your ranged option.

As an alternative scimitars would be a good investment for both BG1 and BG2.

Sceptenar

nano said:

Don't you get to re-pick your proficiencies when you transfer? In any case the melee daggers aren't that great but you could use daggers as your ranged option.

As an alternative scimitars would be a good investment for both BG1 and BG2.

I doubt you get to re-pick your weapon skills. You originally got to do that when moving from BG1 to BG2 because the original BG1 used a different system for weapon skills (fewer and broader skills), they couldn't just assign skills for you so you got to re-pick them.

However BG:EE uses the same engine as BG2:EE (a modified ToB engine) and the skills are the same so there is no reason to re-pick. I would assume you don't get to re-pick for that reason.

Astafas

I'd say wasted. I'm actually playing av half-elven (half-drow even) Fighter/Thief myself, using a longsword, and just finished Cloakwood. I much prefer single weapon style over two weapons: first you get the improved critical range, then you can easily switch to a bow or crossbow for ranged combat.

[Deleted User]

As @nano points out, you can use pips in dagger for a good ranged option in BG2, as there are a couple of excellent magical throwing daggers in that game. If you don't see yourself needing a ranged option, though, you won't get much use out of them.

Lord_Tansheron

Daggers are very very bad in BG2. Even the throwing dagger is only okay, and really only a good pick for classes that can't use other ranged weapons.

[Deleted User]

@Lord_Tansheron I think you're underestimating the Fire Tooth throwing dagger; it out-damages both Gesen and Firetooth (assuming no ammo stacking glitch) as well as the K'logarath throwing axe (barring 24/25 STR). Only Tuigan flat out beats Fire Tooth thanks to its base 3 APR. Unless you're an Archer, Fire Tooth is one of the best ranged weapons you can use.

Southpaw

for my F/T, I found out the most practical was to go longbows + longswords + single weapon prof.
It is just so darn useful to swap between a bow and a single weapon. And as with a part-warrior, your APR will anyway be better than a single class thieves'.

Lord_Tansheron

@Kaigen: I guess we disagree on whether ammo-stacking is a glitch or a feature

Eudaemonium

How exactly does ammo stacking work. Does it just add the additional Fire/Lightning(?) damage of the Firetooth/Gesen onto whatever ammo you have loaded?

simples

loved playing f/t's in bg1... backstabbing people with 18 str was great.. early bg2 worked well too, but later on in the game it became a bit boring i thought. prefer blades now (no backstab, but SPELLS amirite)

[Deleted User]

Eudaemonium said:

How exactly does ammo stacking work. Does it just add the additional Fire/Lightning(?) damage of the Firetooth/Gesen onto whatever ammo you have loaded?

IIRC from the last time I tested it, you get the damage from the created ammo plus the base damage from the ammo you load in, so Firetooth deals 2d8+5+2 and Gesen deals 1d6+2+1d8 with ammo loaded.

Edit: The caveat is that the real ammunition loaded is what's used to determine whether or not you have a high enough magical plus to hurt an enemy, so you lose the ability to hit as +4/+5 that Gesen/Firetooth get and have to settle for whatever your ammo hits as.

mahk

Pixie prick is not a bad dagger in BG2 with the sleep effect after a failed save versus poison. However, I am pretty sure they will fix the Artemis Entreri encounter so that you get his real jeweled dagger after his death....vampiric effects and all......

Lord_Tansheron

@mahk: do you have a source for that? Last I heard they said they were not going to include Unfinished Business in BG2:EE. Either way, that dagger can't hold a candle to some of the other weapons in BG2.

mahk

Just wishful thinking on my part...Artemis kinda got hosed in BGII....drizzt had his correct weapons

nano

Kaigen said:

Eudaemonium said:

How exactly does ammo stacking work. Does it just add the additional Fire/Lightning(?) damage of the Firetooth/Gesen onto whatever ammo you have loaded?

IIRC from the last time I tested it, you get the damage from the created ammo plus the base damage from the ammo you load in, so Firetooth deals 2d8+5+2 and Gesen deals 1d6+2+1d8 with ammo loaded.

Edit: The caveat is that the real ammunition loaded is what's used to determine whether or not you have a high enough magical plus to hurt an enemy, so you lose the ability to hit as +4/+5 that Gesen/Firetooth get and have to settle for whatever your ammo hits as.

Hmm, so it's firing both the created bolt and your regular ammunition at the same time? Does it count as two hits for the purposes of stoneskin/mirror image etc? Two hits for called shot? Can it hit through PfMW if you load in non-magical ammo? (edit: never mind, I see you mentioned you lose the weapon's enchantment so you'd still get stopped by Pf Normal Missiles) Wow, now that I'm thinking it through it sounds pretty broken.

Schneidend

Neb's Nasty Cutter is a good early weapon. It's basically the BG2 version of the Dagger of Venom. Clubs would also be a good option thanks to Gnasher and the Club of Detonation.

[Deleted User]

@nano I didn't run a full battery of tests, mostly just shooting at party members and goblins in Irenicus' Dungeon with CLUA'd items. It doesn't seem to register as multiple hits though, it just deals extra damage in one hit.

As for "broken," well, that's all relative. Does it make them more damaging than other ranged weapon options? Yes, although Tuigan pulls back into the lead for Archers. Will it allow them to keep up with melee warrior damage? Not if the melee warrior has decent Strength. Do they get any kind of utility apart from attacking at range? Not really, and even the lackluster endgame melee weapons at least get some kind of quasi-useful utility effects. So while it might spoil you on other ranged options, it's not likely to ruin your enjoyment of the game.

Now, if they add strength damage to the magical throwing daggers without adjusting their base damage, we'll be singing a different tune. Fire Tooth becomes the king of ranged weapons if you allow the strength bonus to be added in, even allowing it to outdamage most two-handed weapons, though dual-wielding will still outclass it. Likewise if slings universally get the strength bonus, the Firetooth crossbow is going to have some competition in the high damage/low APR bracket.

ChildofBhaal599

Astafas said:

I'd say wasted. I'm actually playing av half-elven (half-drow even) Fighter/Thief myself, using a longsword, and just finished Cloakwood. I much prefer single weapon style over two weapons: first you get the improved critical range, then you can easily switch to a bow or crossbow for ranged combat.

yep this is exactly how my fighter/thief is. it was helpful having bows in the beginning before I got my shadow armor, and then I still find myself switching to bows every now and again because I still can't wear full plate anyway.

on the proficiencies respect in BG2EE, I would consider that because my game carried over from the EE to vanilla BG2 didn't let me respect that the EE wouldn't let you either.

nano

@Kaigen Oh, I see. Yeah, that was wholly my opinion but I was under the impression it would launch both bolts at the same time, effectively doubling every attack you made. 20 attacks under GWW... mother of god...

Cowled_wizard

Kaigen said:

@Lord_Tansheron I think you're underestimating the Fire Tooth throwing dagger; it out-damages both Gesen and Firetooth (assuming no ammo stacking glitch) as well as the K'logarath throwing axe (barring 24/25 STR). Only Tuigan flat out beats Fire Tooth thanks to its base 3 APR. Unless you're an Archer, Fire Tooth is one of the best ranged weapons you can use.

just checking:
Firetooth is 2d4+3 right? base is 2 apr? So if you add str bonus in bg2ee its like a bastard sword+3 with +1 attack per round...

but an archer with a normal bow and grandmastery is better right?
I can see why tuigan is so powerfull, you get it early on for mazzy and you have a killer machine.. and you can add special effect arrows.

Elendar

why half-elf?

[Deleted User]

Cowled_wizard said:

just checking:
Firetooth is 2d4+3 right? base is 2 apr? So if you add str bonus in bg2ee its like a bastard sword+3 with +1 attack per round...

but an archer with a normal bow and grandmastery is better right?
I can see why tuigan is so powerfull, you get it early on for mazzy and you have a killer machine.. and you can add special effect arrows.

Fire Tooth also gets 1d2 fire damage, which gives it an average damage per hit of 9.5, with 2 APR. Roughly equivalent to dual wielding Katana +4. So like I said, nice damage for a ranged weapon, not as good as dual-wielding a decent pair of melee weapons.

As it currently stands, an Archer with Tuigan is the most damaging ranged option; if Fire Tooth gets the strength bonus, than a Kensai wielding it will take the top position.

Best ranged weapon really is relative to your class and how many damage bonuses you can stack. If you are a Fighter/Thief like the OP, meaning the best you can do is specialize (+2) and use the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (+2, +1/2 APR), Fire Tooth (as it currently stands) narrowly edges out Tuigan in the damage race, and ammo-stacking Firetooth/Gesen will beat either of those. Someone who can use Grandmastery, such as Mazzy or a dual-classed vanilla fighter, gets enough damage bonuses that Tuigan starts to edge to the front, though it's still neck and neck with the ammo-stackers. It takes the big per-hit damage bonuses of an Archer to make Tuigan shine above the other options.

Felspawn

Elendar said:

why half-elf?

RP mostly , that and making sure Viconia is romance able. Honestly I'd prefer to just be human, but humans can't multicass and I hate dual class. Half elfs allow multicass and some of the perks of being a elf with the personality and sensibility of a human. Sure I miss out on the +1 on thac0 from being a elf but it's hardly that big a deal, my F/T is plenty deadly without it

Felspawn

I hadn't thought about the ranged option of throwing daggers, it's another argument in its favor and I like the idea of it (for my own personal RP) I might at least throw one pip into it,