Party recommendation for a swashbuckler

bmardiney

So I want to play a good-aligned swashbuckler and here's the party I've come up with. I just want to get impressions before I start down this long road (I've never actually finished BG 1 so I want to check it off the list).

1 - PC as Swashbuckler

2 - Adjantis as paladin

3 - Coran as archer

4 - Yeslick as cleric

5 - Imoen as mage

6 - Neera as mage

I know almost all of those characters are multi or dual classed, but I listed them based on the function I want them to fill. Is it too mage heavy? Too thief heavy? Is Yeslick a good enough cleric to take on that role alone? Do you get him too late? Any thoughts are welcome.

EnterHaerDalis

Looks decent but your front line might be a little weak at the start with just Ajantis and you. I would replace Imoen with Minsc and take Branwen until you can get Yeslick, and Kivan until you can get Coran. You don't really need Imoen to be honest, she's dead weight :P

velehal

I´m also planning to play the game (but only during Christmas) as swashbuckler (but BGT so no new NPC). My group will probably be:

1) swashbuckler (from Rogue Rebalancing)

2) Imoen (dualed to mage at level 7)

3) some fighter: Kivan or Shar-Teel, probably Kivan

4) Coran

5) Yeslick

6) Quayle (I would like to have Eldoth more but not Skie, maybe I will install the possibility of spliting NPC pairs. It is a part of NPC project or SCS)

But this is just an idea, it may change during my playing.

bmardiney

EnterHaerDalis said:

Looks decent but your front line might be a little weak at the start with just Ajantis and you. I would replace Imoen with Minsc and take Branwen until you can get Yeslick, and Kivan until you can get Coran. You don't really need Imoen to be honest, she's dead weight :P

Can you have Misc without Dynaheir? I thought that she had to die for that to work.

EDIT: Oh, nevermind, I forget that you get Minsc before even rescuing Dynaheir.

I'd like to keep Imoen for story purposes, but I've read that she doesn't really talk much in BG1. But then, I've also heard she's a great mage if you dual class her. I'm torn.

jackjack

Either that or you have to trap her in the suburbs.

CutlassJack

Don't see anything wrong with your proposed lineup. Here's my final lineup in my canon EE playthrough.

1. Me (CG Swashbuckler with a heavy focus on pickpocketing before other skills)

2. Minsc. Once I rescue Dynaheir I move her by herself to the top floor of the Friendly Arms inn and remove her from the party. RP wise I'm letting her recover from her kidnapping.

3. Viconia (eventual Romantic interest, and very helpful for getting past the Sirens for Safana's quest)

4. Safana (Dual to Mage at level 6) Because she's a pirate. That's why.

5 Coran (Ranged Support, Lockpicking and fun dialogue with Safana)

6. Rasaad (Mostly to get more Viconia dialogue)

In the early game I use Jaheria, Khalid and Imoen through the clearing of the mines. Long enough to establish some RP history that will carry over into BG2. I entrust Imoen into J&K's care, in a misguided attempt to keep her safe. I also pick up Neera in the early game, to cover magical support in the early game and get her first quest.

bmardiney

Cool, I like all the RP reasoning going into it. A few questions: doesn't being a swashbuckler mean you already have lockpicking handled? I guess it also doesn't matter than Viconia is evil? She never leaves?

bmardiney

Of course, now I'm reading that Stalker is probably the better class for how I want to play (mostly melee dual-wielding). Hmm. If I take a Stalker, then keeping Imoen makes much more sense. Sigh. So many options.

CutlassJack

bmardiney said:

Cool, I like all the RP reasoning going into it. A few questions: doesn't being a swashbuckler mean you already have lockpicking handled? I guess it also doesn't matter than Viconia is evil? She never leaves?

Well as a Swashbuckler I can eventually have all thief skills handled. But in the early game you only have so many points to spread around. Having multiple thieves takes the pressure off so I can spend my points in a way that suits my character best. The pickpocket focus represents his early skills, and lets him score items that he really wants without killing. (Most notably a certain pair of magic scimitars that fit his pirate theme). I like focusing on Detect Illusion after that, then eventually getting into lock/trap/stealth skills.

So I rely on Imoen for early game Lock/Traps. Coran comes with 100% lockpick by the time I get him, but his Find trap is lacking, so I focus Safana on that before dualing her.

Viconia will leave the party if you get to 20 reputation, but there are workarounds. She's also not particularly evil as far as her actual actions go, and in BG2 you can potentially change her alignment. So it makes for a very interesting romance in the long run. She works better with a good group than you might think, but does require keeping an eye on your rep. And avoiding certain companions. She never starts trouble, but a few otherwise good party members (like Kivan) will try to murder her just because of her race.

Elendar

bmardiney said:

EnterHaerDalis said:

Looks decent but your front line might be a little weak at the start with just Ajantis and you. I would replace Imoen with Minsc and take Branwen until you can get Yeslick, and Kivan until you can get Coran. You don't really need Imoen to be honest, she's dead weight :P

Can you have Misc without Dynaheir? I thought that she had to die for that to work.

EDIT: Oh, nevermind, I forget that you get Minsc before even rescuing Dynaheir.

I'd like to keep Imoen for story purposes, but I've read that she doesn't really talk much in BG1. But then, I've also heard she's a great mage if you dual class her. I'm torn.

I'd keep Imoen, personally. She makes the best Good-Aligned mage in the game, IMO.

I'd grab Branwen up until you get to Yeslick. You can't really grab Kivan unless you're willing to rush into the bandit camp, because he will leave after some time if you don't do the bandit camp after recruiting him, but he does make an excellent archer.

If you're planning to have your Swash and Coran deal with the traps and locks, you could just dual Imoen to mage at level 2.

FYI, Ajantis wont make a good tank until you get him the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

bmardiney

Elendar said:

I'd keep Imoen, personally. She makes the best Good-Aligned mage in the game, IMO.

I'd grab Branwen up until you get to Yeslick. You can't really grab Kivan unless you're willing to rush into the bandit camp, because he will leave after some time if you don't do the bandit camp after recruiting him, but he does make an excellent archer.

If you're planning to have your Swash and Coran deal with the traps and locks, you could just dual Imoen to mage at level 2.

FYI, Ajantis wont make a good tank until you get him the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

Alright cool. Branwen until Yeslick, got it. Imoen dualed to mage at level 2...I might just do that. You're right that with Coran and my swash, I'll have traps and locks covered. Is there any benefit to leveling Imoen higher in thief before switching to mage? I'm used to 3rd edition rules so AD&D is super confusing to me.

So I'm gathering that this setup is going to be mage-heavy and fighter-light. I think I'm okay with that but I may switch Imoen for Minsc...not sure yet.

bmardiney

And now I just realized that you can't get Coran until well into the game. Guess I'll grab Kivan until then.

RnRClown

CutlassJack said:

The pickpocket focus represents his early skills, and lets him score items that he really wants without killing. (Most notably a certain pair of magic scimitars that fit his pirate theme).

Viconia will leave the party if you get to 20 reputation, but there are workarounds. She's also not particularly evil as far as her actual actions go, and in BG2 you can potentially change her alignment.

I have never acquired those famous scimitars, as I have never believed in killing any non-hostile for personal gain. It never occurred to me to pursue a pickpocket attempt! It's still stealing, but then again, folks are trying to off Charname at every turn, so it could be seen as self preservation to best equip oneself as best possible, without bloodshed.

How do you manage reputation with Viconia? I may recruit her in a new playthrough - it begins tonight when I clock off from work (excited like a child at christmas) - and find myself weighing up the potential acts of necessity to keep her on side. I was eying up that helm of opposite alignment, but it's not in the easiest of areas to reach.

Elendar

bmardiney said:

Elendar said:

I'd keep Imoen, personally. She makes the best Good-Aligned mage in the game, IMO.

I'd grab Branwen up until you get to Yeslick. You can't really grab Kivan unless you're willing to rush into the bandit camp, because he will leave after some time if you don't do the bandit camp after recruiting him, but he does make an excellent archer.

If you're planning to have your Swash and Coran deal with the traps and locks, you could just dual Imoen to mage at level 2.

FYI, Ajantis wont make a good tank until you get him the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

Alright cool. Branwen until Yeslick, got it. Imoen dualed to mage at level 2...I might just do that. You're right that with Coran and my swash, I'll have traps and locks covered. Is there any benefit to leveling Imoen higher in thief before switching to mage? I'm used to 3rd edition rules so AD&D is super confusing to me.

So I'm gathering that this setup is going to be mage-heavy and fighter-light. I think I'm okay with that but I may switch Imoen for Minsc...not sure yet.

You can dual class Imoen as high as level 6 and still reach max level with her as a mage, though there's no real point in going past level 5(except for more hps and more thief points, but then it takes longer to reactivate the skills after dualing) if you do that (thats when you get an extra backstab mod). You could dual at level 7 and still get to level 8 mage, but then you miss out on level 5 spells because you can't reach max mage level.

Imoen could probably get pretty close to 100 find traps and open locks with her at level 6 if you go the 6 thief/9 mage route. So she could take care of that aspect entirely for you and still be a worthwhile mage while still being able to use a short bow decently (unlike single class mages).

As for fighters, your swashbuckler should be able to hold his own well enough in melee, particularly after you get him the Shadow Armor and some levels. Branwen/Yeslick make decent enough front liners that can take some damage. If you have Kivan and Coran (and sometimes Imoen) both(all) firing arrows from behind those two plus Neera and Imoen firing off spells, it should make most encounters pretty trivial.

Just don't do any buffing spells with Neera. :P

nano

I would just dual Immy at 2. You have more than enough thieves already and your mages can Knock the hard locks so there's no real benefit to a late dual. It's a pain dualing at high levels unless you want to put the effort into powerleveling them afterwards. Level 4 is the latest I would dual her, which I think is enough to get both traps and locks to a high level. And that's only if she's your sole thief.

As for fighters, I'm not sure what your lineup is at this point but many of the characters mentioned can be great in melee if necessary.

Kivan and Coran are traditionally used as archers but actually make for fantastic fighters. Kivan especially; he has great stats and anyone who can get ** in long swords and two weapon style is going to be a fearsome warrior by the end of the game. Make sure you buy up those giant strength potions.

Your cleric can cast Strength of One for fights where you don't want to waste potions and Yeslick himself is no slouch in melee either.

Ajantis is pretty tanky which is always useful in a front liner.

bmardiney

Cool, thanks for the help everyone. Just read that as long as I keep my PC at level 3, it doesn't matter when I get Coran. I think I can handle that. Everything else looks good. Still not sure about Imoen/Minsc, but I have time to decide on that so not a big deal. I'll just have to decide if I want 2 mages (which means more micro-management) or just sit back and right click on enemies to kill them. Hehe

Schneidend

CutlassJack said:

Viconia will leave the party if you get to 20 reputation, but there are workarounds. She's also not particularly evil as far as her actual actions go...

Never really understood this. Of course Viconia's actions are not particularly evil. Her actions are determined by the player.

bmardiney

Schneidend said:

Never really understood this. Of course Viconia's actions are not particularly evil. Her actions are determined by the player.

It's easy to understand once you realize the D&D morality is not even close to modern day morality. In the D&D universe, simply being a certain race makes you "evil", regardless of your actions. It's my main gripe with the whole system: http://objectivistgamer.com/?p=185

doomdoomdoom

Viconia's actions while in your party are irrelevant to her starting alignment which is the consequence of her actions before joining you. And just because it isn't explicitly stated in every dialog, doesn't mean she hadn't done some fucked up shit in her life. In fact, from what I've remember, at some point in her romance she hints at some of those things.
And enough of this stupid victim playing by projection of real world racism into a game. Boo hoo, just being a certain race makes you "evil"... yeah, right, these poor misunderstood drow.

SharGuidesMyHand

bmardiney said:

Is it too mage heavy?

Possibly. You may want to consider having another ranged fighter instead of 2 mages. Ranged fighters are devastating in BG1 (although magic users are more necessary in BG2).

bmardiney said:

Is Yeslick a good enough cleric to take on that role alone? Do you get him too late?

The answer to both questions is yes IMO.

Yeslick is one of the top 5 best NPCs in BG1 IMO. His wisdom is as high as any cleric in the game IIRC, and he also gets dispel magic as an innate ability. On top of that, he can also serve the role of a front-line tank.

But as you've noted, you're going to get Yeslick somewhat late in the game, so you'll need other NPCs to sub as both clerics and fighters until you get him. Use Branwen or Viconia in the cleric role, and Minsc, Kivan, Dorn, Shar-Teel, or Kagain (if you don't mind evil characters) in the role of tanks.

You may want to give some consideration to Kivan. He's almost certainly the most versatile fighter in BG1 - both a devastating archer and an efficient tank. He could fill both Coran's archer role and Yeslick's tank role until you get your hands on them - and by that time, you may decide that you don't want to give him up after all.

nano

doomdoomdoom said:

Viconia's actions while in your party are irrelevant to her starting alignment which is the consequence of her actions before joining you. And just because it isn't explicitly stated in every dialog, doesn't mean she hadn't done some fucked up shit in her life. In fact, from what I've remember, at some point in her romance she hints at some of those things.
And enough of this stupid victim playing by projection of real world racism into a game. Boo hoo, just being a certain race makes you "evil"... yeah, right, these poor misunderstood drow.

Yeah, she's sacrificed her share of surfacers and the label at that point is well-deserved. Then again, I've slaughtered plenty of surfacers myself so it's really the pot calling the kettle black here.

Duron

You all forget how it was for developers at the start. They had to follow the rules of 2nd edition DnD to the letter and they did a fanstastic job. At that time it was easier to just program all evil NPCs to leave at 20 reputation and when you look at Vico at start she wasn't evil per say but she didn't know any better.

Drow are a special race in DnD universe and overall most intriguing and beloved/hated of all the races because of their matriarch driven, slave, torture and backstabing with 0 morality type of inteligent creatures.

So by that definition as Vico lived and knew only such world, anything different is just unacceptable to her, which is a big self contradiction as she gets your help in BG1. I always considered her leaving the group at 20 reputation as a preemptive strike, as she doesn't know better, she is scared that all of it is a rouse and she runs away before you betray here like many did in her past (those who had her in BG2 know exactly all the betrayals she went through both in the Underdark and on surface before meeting the protagonist).

Still, in BG1 it was simply easier to put how all evil NPC-s leave at 20 reputation just as all good leave at 1. And honestly because she doesn't know better Vico is evil NPC in BG1. In BG2 however that has been fixed. She is evil at start and even with 20 reputation she doesn't leave the group, you find out her entire history AND you can even change her allignment in one point of the game.

As conclusion I really don't see a problem with Viconia in the game or the "inherent" evil. If we count out Dritzz from the story all drow's (other then Elistraee followers) are evil. Vico served Lolth at start, she survived Menzobaranzan, you can't say she didn't do dispicable things in the service of Lolth. Even Elistraee's followers had to do some really evil deeds to survive and they actually knew they were doing wrong. Vico didn't. Hell's, it took Vico almost entire BG2 to accept that and only because of protagonist's constant explanations.

Now to return to the original question :P :
My good Swashbucker group consists of:
1, Swash
2. Minsc
3. Dynaheir
4, Neera
5. Yeslick
6. Branwell

Honestly I always found perfect group in 2 arcane casters, 2 divine casters and 2 phisical party members. Till you reach Yeslick you could fill the hole with whoever (I give a thumbs up for Vico honestly ) but it is your call. You can take Ajantis and Xan over Minsc/Dynaheir but in full retrospect Minsc is the best fighter in the game (yes I know he is a ranger but still) and Xan constitution is quite weak. You can dual Immy but honestly... I never found it needed, I liked her as a thief but like all other thiefs in the game there is room for only one thief in a party. Think developers figured that out in BG2, from 7 thiefs in the BG1 game they went down to 3 with two of them as dual classed mages and one thief/mage (I am not counting Yoshimo because... well you know why).

bmardiney

My problem with D&D morality is that it's a tangible thing, that spells check against it, etc. That implies it's an actual "thing" and not simply a social construct, as it is in real life. Because of that, you get Paladins gleefully massacring tribes of peaceful, sentient goblins or whatever while maintain some "good" label. In fact, by D&D rules, if you were to help said goblins escape from that paladin, that would probably make you evil (or at least chaotic). Just very different from secular humanism.

nano

My view is that there's a huge difference between alignment and morality. Alignment is just the flag you fly. As a Paladin you are required to fight for Good even if you're kind of a dick about it. It doesn't have to mean everything you do is right. You can mentally relabel them as political affiliations or countries or whatever abstract concept makes more sense to you than Good and Evil.