Druids... Shapeshifter

Ryshard

Hi,

First of all I'd like to ask if Druids were always True Neutral? I'm pretty sure I remember them being True Neutral in BG1 vanilla but then having the choice of Neutral Good, Neutral and Neutral Evil in BG2. Or am I thinking of a different game? Possibly one of the other Black Isle ones. Anyways, if I'm correct then hopefeully then other alignments will be available in BG2.

I played them all through vanilla as a Druid then Shapeshifter through BG2 and thought it was awesome. I'm now running BG1 as a Shapeshifter and its fantastic. Especially as I can cast Horror (which you get from one of those bad dreams) while in Werewolf form. I start most big fights by casting a couple of spells and then start mauling with my big fat wolf hands, cast horror and then chase them about while tearing them apart with my speed boots on.

Anyways, everytime I've googled Shapeshifters there seems to be loads of bad comments about them. Could anyone expand on this? Or is it just people whinging because the stats aren't exactly the same as an actual Werewolf?

To me my char seems to be awesome.

Cheers

ghostowl

wait till you try to use them in BG2, and then later in ToB.

They are awesome in BG1 because of the low level though.

Eudaemonium

Now I have never played a SS (except for a bit in MP in BGEE, and it was super fun), but in general I hear the comments orienting around the fact that the Werewolf forms become less and less effective in late SoA and ToB, as enemies get more and better resistances and the shapeshifter just fails to keep up as well as many other classes. Adding in the way Druids plateau around levels 14-15, and the fact that SS can't wear armour, it makes them worse compared to other classes. That's just what I've heard, though. The one time I did play a SS in BGEE it was very fun.

Koyote

True neutral was the only choice through Baldur's Gate. IWD2 is the first time they got some flexibility in alignment iirc.

The real downer on shapeshifter is the paws count as +3 which means there are several things they can't hurt later on in the game.

doomdoomdoom

In BG2 they're still fine. I don't agree with these early whiners either.
Ironskinned greater werewolf form is more than good enough for Shadows of Amn. Surely not as powerful as certain powergaming builds, but it's pretty silly trying to measure everything up to those.
Just like it's silly to say that the PC werewolf forms should be identical to the werewolves you fight.

BG2 expansion is where the shapeshifter's melee ability falls off quite a bit, because they don't get anything special at all and could certainly use a buff, such as better + and damage on the claw weapon, perhaps improved stats (as they become a severe downgrade to what you can have in human form with all the magic items and permanent bonuses), perhaps a few picks from the fighter HLA pool - such as (greater) whirlwinds, and war cry (call it howl if you will)... that would be nice, but it's not gonna happen, I'm afraid. There was a "rebalance" mod for shapeshifters, but from what I remember it really lacked moderation and balance. Just like all the other mods of that variety, sadly.

So at that point in the game you're mostly just a regular single class druid. Which ain't too shabby, but not that exciting either, especially when you signed up for Team Jacob and all you want to do is run around shirtless, imprinting on stuff.

PS. All druids are True Neutral only in D&D 2nd edition games. Perhaps you're thinking of games that used later edition rules (IWD2, NWN games).

Joey

I've only played the "fixed" version, and in BG2. The Greater Werewolf is a bit over-powered, but not compared to other classes, especially at higher levels.

The vanilla version certainly needs some love. The fact that you can get magical items that are *better* than your werewolf form makes it rather redundant.

elminster

Even just making it so that as a Greater Werewolf you do 2d8 slashing damage instead of 1d6 piercing damage (and attack as a +3 weapon instead of a +2 weapon) would be a start.

Corvino

Shapeshift forms of all druids now benefit from various bonuses including rings of protection, immunities and resistances from equipped weapons and so on. This doesn't appear to have been the case in vanilla BG2. It does make Shapeshifters worth re-evaluating, and maybe they're no longer the divine equivalent to the Wizard Slayer.

nano

That's pretty neat. Are there items they can use to improve their combat? I've never played one but from what I've heard it's their offensive power that's lacking.

Ryshard

Cheers Fellas,

I remember completing SoA, wit no problems and then re-running it solo with my then Archdruid and smashing the majority of the game.

I could kill everyone in that weapons shop on Wakeens Promenade and it was only certain fights such as Kangax with his Maze spell that caused the issues. Maybe any top level character can do the same and I just didn't realise.

As druids are in other games, I see them as a utility class so I don't expect them to throw out the same melee damage as a Fighter or spell damage of a Mage. They just need to be played in the correct way. Most people don't take advantage of the Druid class shapeshifting abilities and use them only as casters or vice versa. There's a reason why they can change in and out of form several times depending on their level and that's to change back, throw off a few spells (possibly healing if it's needed) and then go back into Werewolf mode and get back into the thick of it. The Boots of Speed are ideal for this, running to the back of a room, changing, casting, changing again and getting back to the front.

Anyways, stats are for mathematicians in my book and I'll stick the the character I have more fun with. I'll work around any difficulties.

Thanks for the input!

Ryshard

Oh yeah perhaps it was IWD or NWN where I had a Neutral Evil druid.

magpie

If only shapeshifters had one more shape, a tier above their greater werewolf shape (could be a HLA that replaces the elemental shapes), they'd be perfect. But yes, as is, they're extremely awesome in BG, OK in most of BG2 and lose much of what makes them interesting over a vanilla druid end BG2/ToB.

Oh, by the way, a hint: werewolf paws benefit from single weapon style, and if you equip an off-hand weapon before shifting you'll get an extra attack at your normal thac0 (no dual wielding penalty), while still getting the bonus of single weapon style.

havlya

magpie said:

If only shapeshifters had one more shape, a tier above their greater werewolf shape (could be a HLA that replaces the elemental shapes), they'd be perfect. But yes, as is, they're extremely awesome in BG, OK in most of BG2 and lose much of what makes them interesting over a vanilla druid end BG2/ToB.

Oh, by the way, a hint: werewolf paws benefit from single weapon style, and if you equip an off-hand weapon before shifting you'll get an extra attack at your normal thac0 (no dual wielding penalty), while still getting the bonus of single weapon style.

Nice tips!
Club +1, +3 vs Unnatural Creatures , Scimitar +3, Frostbrand or Dagger of Venom you can use in bgee.

mackos

magpie said:

If only shapeshifters had one more shape, a tier above their greater werewolf shape (could be a HLA that replaces the elemental shapes), they'd be perfect. But yes, as is, they're extremely awesome in BG, OK in most of BG2 and lose much of what makes them interesting over a vanilla druid end BG2/ToB.

Oh, by the way, a hint: werewolf paws benefit from single weapon style, and if you equip an off-hand weapon before shifting you'll get an extra attack at your normal thac0 (no dual wielding penalty), while still getting the bonus of single weapon style.

one more tip - they benefit from dual wielding also - you can have equal Thaco on both hands with one perk in this style. Without it you get -2 for secend hand

mjs

i solo'd with an SS through bgee and i think they're very versatile. they can mix it up a bit in melee and have some great spells. i mostly used:

doom: for fights i needed an edge in

barkskin: pre-fight buff
chant: good to use while in sanctuary in the middle of a group of enemies...doens't break sanctuary

call lightning: epic outside damage
summon insects: great against fighters, uber against spell casters

call woodland beings: the only spell you ever need. this is so good, that once you've got access to level 4 spells, you've pretty much cracked the game. 2 of these beauties should be enough to win most fights

iron skins: great for tanking
true sight: great anti-mage spell

lastly try and navigate your reputation up for chapters 5 and 6 , so you get DuHM for your ability rather than Vampiric touch. this will really give you another bumpf up in melee, when you shapeshift

magpie

mackos said:

one more tip - they benefit from dual wielding also - you can have equal Thaco on both hands with one perk in this style. Without it you get -2 for secend hand

actually, that's not true. You gain no penalties on your off hand attack even without two weapon style (in v1.2). You do however get proficiency penalties/bonuses and magical thac0 modifiers of your off hand weapon on your off hand attack (but not those from your main hand weapon on your main hand attacks).

Jagged

I have always loved the idea of the SS but it's weakness in TOB has always prevented me from making one.
This thread does have me interested in trying one out though.

How does the improved werewolf compare to the druid hla forms?

elminster

mjs said:

i solo'd with an SS through bgee and i think they're very versatile. they can mix it up a bit in melee and have some great spells. i mostly used:

sanctuary: for fights i knew i couldn't win
doom: for fights i needed an edge in
remove fear: for mage fights

barkskin: pre-fight buff
chant: good to use while in sanctuary in the middle of a group of enemies...doens't break sanctuary

call lightning: epic outside damage
summon insects: great against fighters, uber against spell casters

call woodland beings: the only spell you ever need. this is so good, that once you've got access to level 4 spells, you've pretty much cracked the game. 2 of these beauties should be enough to win most fights

iron skins: great for tanking
true sight: great anti-mage spell

lastly try and navigate your reputation up for chapters 5 and 6 , so you get DuHM for your ability rather than Vampiric touch. this will really give you another bumpf up in melee, when you shapeshift

In BGEE they don't get sanctuary, remove fear, or chant.

mjs

@elminster you're right about remove fear, but i think they do get sanctuary

elminster

Nope.

Ryshard

Mint ideas about the offhand guys thanks, I hadn't realised and just spent my weapon points on spears and two handed weapon style. Any ideas when I can add extra points?

amftron

level 4

mackos

magpie said:

mackos said:

one more tip - they benefit from dual wielding also - you can have equal Thaco on both hands with one perk in this style. Without it you get -2 for secend hand

actually, that's not true. You gain no penalties on your off hand attack even without two weapon style (in v1.2). You do however get proficiency penalties/bonuses and magical thac0 modifiers of your off hand weapon on your off hand attack (but not those from your main hand weapon on your main hand attacks).

Indeed you're right!

Thrasymachus

magpie said:

Oh, by the way, a hint: werewolf paws benefit from single weapon style, and if you equip an off-hand weapon before shifting you'll get an extra attack at your normal thac0 (no dual wielding penalty), while still getting the bonus of single weapon style.

The PC need not be a shapeshifter to enjoy this benefit. This is true of other shapes as well (e.g., a sword spider with a weapon equipped in its 'off hand' gets 5 attacks per round).

magpie

Thrasymachus said:

The PC need not be a shapeshifter to enjoy this benefit. This is true of other shapes as well (e.g., a sword spider with a weapon equipped in its 'off hand' gets 5 attacks per round).

yes, that's definitely true. It works for every shapeshift/summoned weapon. Pretty nice for the seeking sword of a priest of helm, or the black blade of disaster. For more information check http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/23177/weapon-styles-and-shapeshifting-summoned-weapons

mjs

yep, my bad - using mods. sanctuary definitely isn't on vanilla druid's list