Fighter/whatever dual class

Worg

Are you telling me that a dual classed level 2 fighter and level 16 thief could be grandmaster with any given weapon? This seems silly considering that you have stopped advancing as a fighter and concentrated completely on a new path, such as thief or cleric who get no such benefits. A multiclass is restricted to 2 pips and they are at least trying to keep up with their fighting studies.

I think that when you dual class, you keep whatever you have earned as a fighter, but the cost of dual classing is that you cannot keep developing those skills or else you would still be a fighter.

All in all, there are owls in the moss and they shouldn't be!

elminster

What you are saying is how it was in BG1. BG2 changed that so that you are able to increase weapon proficiencies above proficiency even if you are no longer a fighter.

Eudaemonium

And it is glorious.

Worg

elminster said:

What you are saying is how it was in BG1. BG2 changed that so that you are able to increase weapon proficiencies above proficiency even if you are no longer a fighter.

What you are saying sounds like a bug and should be fixed. I doubt there was an intention to make the fighter class nigh redundant and non unique.

elminster

Worg said:

elminster said:

What you are saying is how it was in BG1. BG2 changed that so that you are able to increase weapon proficiencies above proficiency even if you are no longer a fighter.

What you are saying sounds like a bug and should be fixed. I doubt there was an intention to make the fighter class nigh redundant and non unique.

As far as I know it was an intended change. A ranger dualed to a cleric for instance can't get any more than ** in a weapon. Its now effectively a feature of the fighter class.

Lord_Tansheron

It's hard to say whether it's a bug or a feature. After all, you do regain your fighter abilities once you get back the class - it doesn't make too much sense to think you've suddenly forgotten how to get good at using a particular weapon, even if you're training that weapon as part of your new class. You would, after all, gain a proficiency point either way; and you could even argue that improving an existing weapon proficiency is easier than learning an entirely new one, especially if you have a fighter background (i.e. their training/knowledge of how to improve yourself).

That being said, you could also argue differently for sure. I don't think there's an objective argument to decide this one way or the other, so we're stuck with more or less the status quo. It does strengthen dual class, but that system does come at a cost. In BG2 in particular (which is where GM matters most) it can be a considerable hurdle to overcome an inactive class - enough, arguably, to justify higher rewards. Dual is already fairly close to multiclass, and in some cases even worse. There are masses of XP available in BG2/ToB, and high levels don't add nearly as much as you'd think, giving multi an edge. Not having access to GM is one of their big downsides, and if you take that away from duals, too, there is little reason to ever dual at all instead of just going multi.

From a powergaming perspective, it certainly does skew things. Ideally you'll probably end up with almost everyone in the party a fighter (whole or in part), and it does take away a lot of appeal from single classes. I'd never mage a single-class mage, for example, simply because a fighter->mage dual is infinitely better. This could be perceived as a problem to be sure, but I'm not sure restricting GM is going to fix that.

Worg

I would attribute this as the lazyness of the developers rather than a bug or a feature. The starting level of a fighter in bg2 would be so high that he would almost always have the ability to get grandmastery in a weapon so no limit was set. The problem is in bg1, you can circumvent this to a silly degree. Why start as a pure thief when for just 4000 xp you can be grandmaster in shortbows? or longbows for that matter?

Lord_Tansheron

@Worg: I'm not too firm on BG1, but isn't that related more to the fact that dualing allows you to spend all starting pips into a single proficiency, while you can only put 2 max in at character creation? *That* sounds like the "bug", not the fact that duals can get GM in general.

Eudaemonium

Well, it depends on whether you want kit benefits. I mean sure you can edit a kit onto a second class but if you're doing that you could add all your profs onto a single weapon anyway.

Regardless, I doubt many people want this 'fixed' anyway.

CutlassJack

Later editions (of D&D rules) require at least a 4 level fighter investment to specialize. But on the plus side, its easy enough to self-regulate if you don't want that kind of advantage. It doesn't really require any patching.

Eudaemonium

@Lord_Tansheron: This was actually fixed in the latest patch.

elminster

Worg said:

Why start as a pure thief when for just 4000 xp you can be grandmaster in shortbows? or longbows for that matter?

Because you can pick a different race or play as a kit.

Also its not as if you are just going to suddenly be getting grandmastery. It takes time. Its only possible for a fighter (3) -> thief to get 1 grandmastery in BGEE and to do so from a fighter standpoint you sacrifice getting the 7th level APR boost (which basically means you only do 1 extra damage compared to a pure fighter with high mastery). In BG2 you either spend a lot more time without anything more than proficiency in whatever weapon you are using (if you dual at level 13) or you miss out on getting that level 13 half APR as well as any additional Thac0, hit point, and saving throw benefits. Not to mention you miss out on the fighter HLA's. I guess I just don't see the big deal.

Worg

elminster said:

Worg said:

Why start as a pure thief when for just 4000 xp you can be grandmaster in shortbows? or longbows for that matter?

Because you can pick a different race or play as a kit.

Also its not as if you are just going to suddenly be getting grandmastery. It takes time. Its only possible for a fighter (3) -> thief to get 1 grandmastery in BGEE and to do so from a fighter standpoint you sacrifice getting the 7th level APR boost (which basically means you only do 1 extra damage compared to a pure fighter with high mastery). In BG2 you either spend a lot more time without anything more than proficiency in whatever weapon you are using (if you dual at level 13) or you miss out on getting that level 13 half APR as well as any additional Thac0, hit point, and saving throw benefits. Not to mention you miss out on the fighter HLA's. I guess I just don't see the big deal.

I am not talking about from a fighter point of view. From a thief point of view, you get access to 3 pips in dual wielding (class feature of the swashbuckler), 2 pips in any style and 5 pips in any weapon(1 extra attack, +3 to hit, +5 damage and -3 speedfactor). for the price of 4000 xp.

Why would your abilities as a fighter improve, and outshine a higher level fighter, when you are solely leveling up as a thief, when a multiclass character couldn't do it to save his life?

Xavioria

I always found that dual classing made multi classing feel very lack luster... Now that the 2da regarding class and race is externalized, you COULD make it so EVERY race can dual class... which is okay... I SUPPOSE, but at the same time... without cheating or modding, dual classing just seems more interesting, because not only do you get some of those extra pips and you get all your old skills back, but you're also only advancing as ONE class, which means you advance faster than a multi class would.

The only Pro to being multi-class i can tell is that I suppose you get HLAs from BOTH classes at higher levels and you also get the bonuses of BOTH classes at higher levels... if you can REACH those higher levels... lol

Elendar

Xavioria said:

The only Pro to being multi-class i can tell is that I suppose you get HLAs from BOTH classes at higher levels and you also get the bonuses of BOTH classes at higher levels... if you can REACH those higher levels... lol

That and the fact that you don't have to spend half the game trying to get your other class to reactivate... if you can reach a high enough level to do so.

Lateralus

Dude, there are so many problems with 2nd ed, and this is what you choose to talk about?

2nd ed was design for PnP gamers who would sit around arguing for 5 hours and actually playing the game for 1 hour a session. It is deeply flawed for a computer game, somehow they pulled it off, but there is no DM to argue with so you wont get your way.

nano

I think it's a bug too. After you reactivate your original class, you can no longer advance as a fighter and putting pips above 2 is a fighter ability. It's not like dual classing needs the help anyways.

That said, players hate nerfs and it only affects a small number of dual classes. Most fighter duals like the infamous Kensai 9/Mage x can attain grand mastery without this bug.

It's the same deal with cleric/ranger; yes, it's broken but it's probably not going to be fixed so just think of it as a "feature".