BG 2: Magical Resistance and Spell Protection
Heindrich
Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
My approach so far to deal with anything like a Lich or Elder Orb, is to throw a barrage of Breach, Dispel, Remove Magic and basically unload my spellbook at the problem, until I could take it down in melee or with Minute Meteors. That was fine, until I returned from the Underdark, and started running into unnamed Liches around every corner, presumably because the game is scaling up as my party levels up, so where there might once have been a Yuanti-Mage, now there's a Lich with a few Greater Mummies and Skelly Warrior buddies.
So I think I should learn some method to this higher level magical combat, so I can use my spellbook more efficiently, cos I don't like resting after every battle.
My party consists of F/M Charname, Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen. Highest Mage level is 13, Highest Cleric Level is 16. Highest Druid Level is 13.
So some questions...
1) Am I right in thinking that Magic Resistance is a proportional effect that influences how much damage spells can do? Does it have an effect on saves vs spells? (I assume that depends on Saving Throws, which is something different and affected by Greater Mallison). I know I can lower it with Lower Resistance, is there anything else I can do to reduce an enemy's Magic Resistance.
2) If an enemy has innate immunity to weapons of a certain level of enchantment, like say a Lesser Demon Lord is immune to +4 or lower, is there anything you can do about that? Is it related to his Magic Resistance?
3) Instead of throwing Breach, Dispel and Remove Magic in a fairly random order, what is 'proper' order I should use such spells? Would it help if I used Greater Mallison and/or Lower Resistance first?
Any other advice or tips on how to combat Liches, Dragons or other such nasties, and specifically how to strip them of their defences, is much appreciated!
ps:
4) Oh yeah, is there any way to get around having to manually cast all ur protection spells after each 'rest'. It gets a bit tedious to have to cast Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear, Prot from Evil, Spirit Armor and Stone Skin at the start of every session, and that's just the long term protection spells! At the start of battles I usually do Chant, Defensive Harmony, Mirror Image and Draw Upon Holy Might... these things are so routine I wish they could be programmed automatically!
So I think I should learn some method to this higher level magical combat, so I can use my spellbook more efficiently, cos I don't like resting after every battle.
My party consists of F/M Charname, Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen. Highest Mage level is 13, Highest Cleric Level is 16. Highest Druid Level is 13.
So some questions...
1) Am I right in thinking that Magic Resistance is a proportional effect that influences how much damage spells can do? Does it have an effect on saves vs spells? (I assume that depends on Saving Throws, which is something different and affected by Greater Mallison). I know I can lower it with Lower Resistance, is there anything else I can do to reduce an enemy's Magic Resistance.
2) If an enemy has innate immunity to weapons of a certain level of enchantment, like say a Lesser Demon Lord is immune to +4 or lower, is there anything you can do about that? Is it related to his Magic Resistance?
3) Instead of throwing Breach, Dispel and Remove Magic in a fairly random order, what is 'proper' order I should use such spells? Would it help if I used Greater Mallison and/or Lower Resistance first?
Any other advice or tips on how to combat Liches, Dragons or other such nasties, and specifically how to strip them of their defences, is much appreciated!
ps:
4) Oh yeah, is there any way to get around having to manually cast all ur protection spells after each 'rest'. It gets a bit tedious to have to cast Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear, Prot from Evil, Spirit Armor and Stone Skin at the start of every session, and that's just the long term protection spells! At the start of battles I usually do Chant, Defensive Harmony, Mirror Image and Draw Upon Holy Might... these things are so routine I wish they could be programmed automatically!
Post edited by Heindrich on
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Comments
2) Nothing to do with MR, get yourself a +4 weapon. Some summoned weapons have high enchantment levels if you're lacking a weapon.
3) Removal spells aren't affected by MR as far as I know so you don't need Lower Resistance. Malison only affects saving throws so you don't need that either.
It depends how you want to kill the mage as to what you want to dispel, you should also read the battle log. First of all dispel illusions with True Sight allowing you to target the mage. I find the easiest way of dealing with mages is to Breach then use melee. If the mage has a Contingency with another PfMW for example then Breach again. It helps to have two Breach users so you can stop the enemy getting off a Timestop in the event of a Contingency.
If you want to use spells then you could either use an area of effect spell not targetted on the mage to bypass their defences. Otherwise you need spell protection removal of which there are many variations. If the mage is high level and has Spelltrap then you need Ruby Ray, Pierce Shield or Spellstrike.
Other tips:
- Some enemies may be immune to spells below a certain level. Some liches are immune to level 5 and below some Rakshasa 7 and below and Demiliches even level 9. You can't remove this. If the lich is immune to level 5 and below then regular Breach won't work, but luckily Breach from a Wand of Spell Strike casts at level 6.
- Some spells bypass Magic Resistance. Sunfire (always used to work in BG2, although I believe this was just patched in BG1EE so it probably won't any more), Dragon's Breath, Imprisonment and (don't quote me on this one) Bolt of Glory.
- By the time that your Dispel / Remove Magic works on a lich, your cleric can probably Turn them.
- Dragons are very straightforward IMO. Protect yourself from its physical attacks (damage resistance, Stoneskin, PfMW, etc.), protect from fear, protect from its breath and you're good to go.
4) If you search google you should be able to find some auto-buffing scripts, there was one in the Solaufein mod IIRC. I've never used them so I dunno how good they are. You could also cut some of the spells you mentioned - Chant, Defensive Harmony and Spirit Armour are all meh, Pf Evil depends on the fight.
Thanks for all that!
1) So I totally misunderstood that... thanks for clearing it up.
2) I wish the game gave a bit more information on why an attack isn't working. For a newbie like me, it's not always clear if it is because of a spell protection (I guess most commonly PfMW) or innate immunity to weapon enchantment level.
I usually try to kill enemy mages with Charname's Celestial Fury and/or Anomen's Flail of Ages. I guess all those Dispels I've been flinging at liches and demons have only succeeded in stripping my party of buffs lol
I've seen people say that Liches have immunity to Breach because they got immunity to level 5 spells and lower... but I swear I've managed to strip protections like PfMW from liches using exactly that. How else have I managed to kill them? I don't have access to higher level penetration spells like Pierce Magic, and most lich battles involve me starting off unable to hurt a lich, and then slowly degrading his defences, killing the Mislead copy and eventually hacking/bludgeoning him to death with Celestial Fury and/or FoA. I'm kinda confused... is my game bugged? If so... how else are u supposed to take down a Lich relatively early in the game?!
It's called Remove Magic. I use that too, but I guess that also does nothing vs high level enemies like Liches.
@Decado No, that is useless in BG1, too :P
And, Ruby Ray of Reversal + Breach are a lot more convincing than Spellstrike.
1) Magic resistance and Saves.
Magic resistance is a flat % chance that harmful spells will fail to work on this character. It can be lowered with lower resistance. Saves reduce or negate certain effects of a spell, and can be reduced with Doom and Greater Malison, spells may also have bonuses or penalties built it. While good saves and MR are bloody annoying they're still a % chance, and you're better off getting rid of spell and combat protections.
2) Combat protections.
Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons and so on all fit in here. Combat protections are why your melee are swinging and having no effect. Breach can get rid of these.
3) Spell protections.
Spell deflection, Spell turning, Spell trap, Spell shield, Globe of Invulnerability and various minor versions are all in this category. They stop you (or the enemy) being Breached, and are a way to ensure you (or your enemy) can't lose their combat protections. You'll need a Removal spell to get through half of these, something like Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelben's Warding Whip etc.
4) Invisibility.
There are numerous ways of becoming invisible, including Mislead and Improved Invisibility. If an enemy is not *fully visibile* (i.e. no being half-transparent) then you cannot target them with any single-target spell. You need True Seeing, Detect Illusions or some other way to get around this.
The best approach is to start by getting rid of invisibility & illusions, then spell protections, then cast Breach, then melee them. Each layer prevents the removal of the one below it, and combat protections are the ones you really want gone.
Thanks! That's really clear and illuminating!
Also, does Breach work on a % basis? I'm just wondering on occasions where I've had to use multiple Breaches before I could hurt something, whether it was because I got lucky, or if his spell protections simply ran out, seeing as I haven't had the ability to do anything about spell protections up to now.
By the way, could you possibly shed some light on the Lich immunity to Breach uncertainty? Are they supposed to be immune to all lv5 spells and lower at least?
Some spell protections absorb or reflect a total number of spell levels. For example Spell Deflection absorbs 10 levels of spells, but only if the caster is single-targeted. So it could absorb 10 Chromatic orbs or 2 Breaches before expiring, but fireball or dispel wouldn't be deflected as they're AOE. So if an enemy had Spell Deflection in place and you cast Breach 3 times then the first two would be absorbed but the third would be effective.
Liches are indeed immune to Breach in BG2 vanilla. I'm not sure about BG2:EE yet. So you just need to wallop them enough times to get through the stoneskin.
*Edit* As for Dispel/Remove Magic and Liches, I have a bad feeling that they may well be immune to the Arcane and Divine spell versions as they cast as a level 3 spell. Inquisitors cast their special dispel as a level 0 spell which bypasses Lich and Demilich immunity though, which makes them very valuable indeed.
Try to find a high level spell (7-8) with AOE to disturb their casting, and you will find them easy.
Vampires > Turn Undead.
Shadows >Turn Undead.
Skeletons >Turn Undead.
Then...
Final bosses > Thief traps, lots of them.
ToB hordes > Greater Deathblow with Frag Grenade and Big Metal Rod. Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, MANY of them, like many Cloudkills for SoA mages.
Then, Greater Mallison and then Chromatic Orb when you're past mage lvl12.
Just search for "cheese guides". :P
Anyway, if he is past chapter 6, he shouldn't need cheese tactics.
In case of spells, clerics have Storm of Vengeance which affects only enemies it seems to passed through a lot types of protection. Mages and sorcerers have Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting which is probably the best AoE in game, second one is Dragon's Breath. Both works well in battle against liches.
I also recommend Karsomir (along with Keldorn, who has incredibly usefull quick cast true sight at will).
Typical fight flow:
1) Lich becomes hostile; instantly triggers Mislead, Protection from Magical Weapons, Spell Shield (or Spell Trap)
2) You wait for True Seeing to trigger (assuming you had it pre-buffed), then try to use a Ruby Ray, Warding Whip or Spellstrike to take down the magical protection. Note Secret Word does not work, as it's a level 4 spell. Even if you manage to get its spell protection off, your melee and archers still can't hit it and it's still immune to almost all of the 'direct damage' spells (Magic Missile, Flame Arrow, etc).
3) Lich casts Time Stop, and then goes with Meteor Swarm/Protection from Evil/Gate, or possibly Death Spell/Symbol:Stun/Symbol:Fear
4) Lich's Protection from Magical Weapons expires, and its Contingency trigger another one.
5) Lich starts casting Abi-Dalzim's, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, etc. Eventually you die or the lich runs out of spells.
Now, that can get aggravating. The best way to avoid this mess is to wait until you've got a mage that can cast level 8 spells and hammer him with Abi-Dalzim's. Later on Comet is a faster alternative, although some of the liches (specifically elemental ones) will put up a Fireshield:Red which prevents most of Comet's fire damage. Either way, this bypasses all of his combat defenses and interrupts his casting to boot. Alternatively, it's a lot easier for solo folks - just use a Protection from Undead scroll; he won't notice you're there, and you can melee him to death without him casting a single spell.