(Spoiler) Hexxat and Keldorn

GeLLie

Just before I am going to bed .. yeah - I have to choose between Hexxat and Keldorn.

If any knows how to keep them both in party, let me know.

Akachi

He doesn't want to join at all, or does he start a fight? To the former there is no fix, to the latter try BG2 Tweak Pack, "Happy patch" from convenience tweaks section ( they will still bicker, but never fight).

Keldorn is Lawful Stupid, so he'll never work with someone of evil alignement. Still remember him killing Viconia once, earned him some Imprisonment time

LiamEsler

The BG2 Tweaks change won't apply to the new NPCs yet.

Akachi

But they will apply to Keldorn, shouldn't that be enough? He usually starts the fights.

LiamEsler

@Akachi It only applies to old content, not the new, added content.

Akachi

Oh, I get it, the fight scene between Keldorn and Hexxat will be unaffected. A shame. Guess no Dorn+Keldorn in the party too.

MERLANCE

Akachi said:

Keldorn is Lawful Stupid, so he'll never work with someone of evil alignement. Still remember him killing Viconia once, earned him some Imprisonment time

He gets along fine with Korgan, they are best buddies practically.

Akachi

Really? Never had Korgan in my party. Guess Keldorn just doesn't like women then. Or drow.

Anyway @GeLLie to answer your question a second time: you can't do anything yet unfortunately. You could try disabling the party AI, that should stop them from initiating a fight after the breaking point quarrel, but it's a workaround at best (and forces you to always micromanage the team )
Unless of course they flat out refuse to be in the party together, then there's probably no solution at all.

kamuizin

Akachi said:

Really? Never had Korgan in my party. Guess Keldorn just doesn't like women then. Or drow.

Anyway @GeLLie to answer your question a second time: you can't do anything yet unfortunately. You could try disabling the party AI, that should stop them from initiating a fight after the breaking point quarrel, but it's a workaround at best (and forces you to always micromanage the team )
Unless of course they flat out refuse to be in the party together, then there's probably no solution at all.

An piece of advice, play with Korgan, it's a killing machine. Volo's words, not mine !

GeLLie

It is impossible to keep both, as Keldorn doesn't like Hexxat.

First he allows her to be in the party for now, but after a few days, he gives an ultimatum, either him or her.

kamuizin

problematic paladin... not Hexxat, not edwin... not viconia... not chaotic neutral anomen (this last provoke him in fact)... what a bitch of character!!! And the hypocrite goes along pretty well with Korgan!!!

Jerrin

He's the white mage of the Baldur's Gate games, IE everyone wants a Keldorn in their party, since he's the only one able to wield Carsomyr (unless you're playing as a pally'), which in turn entitles him to bitchyness.

AI affected by human behavior, now that's scary. Wouldn't want that for an evil robot overlord.

shawne

Solution: Create your own Inquisitor with better stats than Keldorn, and put that old fart out to pasture.

onan

shawne said:

Solution: Create your own Inquisitor with better stats than Keldorn, and put that old fart out to pasture.

Or better yet, Use Any Item with an evil F/T and corrupt Carsomyr

kamuizin

Jerrin said:

He's the white mage of the Baldur's Gate games, IE everyone wants a Keldorn in their party, since he's the only one able to wield Carsomyr (unless you're playing as a pally'), which in turn entitles him to bitchyness.

AI affected by human behavior, now that's scary. Wouldn't want that for an evil robot overlord.

Hexxat, in fact, can wield carsomyr too ! People who know will understand why XD!

GreenEnergy

I FINALLY FIGURED OUT A WAY TO KEEP ANOMEN AND KELDORN WITH HEXXAT !!!

All you need to do is open your save with EE Keeper 1.0.2.1, go to Global Variables (doesn't matter for which character) and set very big values (999999999999999) for:

OHH_ANOMENTALKS and OHH_KELDORNTALKS

that's all

I just hope it will not ruin their other talks.

tennisgolfboll

Korgan and keldorn may have very different alignments but will fight together very well. Korgan is the best written character in bg imo.

His chat with minsc is awesome for example

shawne

GreenEnergy said:

I FINALLY FIGURED OUT A WAY TO KEEP ANOMEN AND KELDORN WITH HEXXAT !!!

Congratulations, you've gamed the system in a way that nullifies the characterization of three party members. Bravo.

GreenEnergy

shawne said:

Congratulations, you've gamed the system in a way that nullifies the characterization of three party members. Bravo.

Believe me, I and MANY others finished the entire game BY THE BOOK at least a few times. After that, there is time for some changes, whatever sb wishes. If I were good enough, I would write a mod that would introduce a quest, where Hexxat, say, also wants to kill Irenicus and is in possession of information that could help me get to him and save Imoem. Not once good fellas had to ally with their enemies to fight a common greater enemy. Even in the real world. WHY NOT ?? But this sabotage has to suffice. I want to play with these characters to have more FUN from this legendary game. If you want to play by the book, be my guest, let others decide for themselves HOW they want to finish this game for the sixth time, and keep your sarcasm for yourself.

shawne

Hey, you're free to do what you want, I just find it strange that you're jumping for joy at having turned half your party into Icewind Dale NPCs. *shrug*

GreenEnergy

Yes I am happy to have accomplished it as I BADLY wanted to go through this game WITH my dream team AND with some fresh blood thief (especially that there are no GOOD enough for me single-class thieves in the entire SoA that would accompany me till the end without cheats or tricks). I've tried MANY mods and tricks and nothing until finally I figured it out, for me it was next to impossible, so yes, I am happy.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the specificity of those characters. But as you stated I and, apparently, others will do whatever we want so I do not really see any sense in your criticizing sth you perceive strange on the internet. I suggest we drop the issue as this is turning into spam. Somebody asked for a solution and I provided it.

Lace

EDIT: Herp-a-derp. Original comment is not relevant.

kamuizin

GreenEnergy said:

Yes I am happy to have accomplished it as I BADLY wanted to go through this game WITH my dream team AND with some fresh blood thief (especially that there are no GOOD enough for me single-class thieves in the entire SoA that would accompany me till the end without cheats or tricks). I've tried MANY mods and tricks and nothing until finally I figured it out, for me it was next to impossible, so yes, I am happy.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the specificity of those characters. But as you stated I and, apparently, others will do whatever we want so I do not really see any sense in your criticizing sth you perceive strange on the internet. I suggest we drop the issue as this is turning into spam. Somebody asked for a solution and I provided it.

You're losing nothing about Hexxat Banters, a shame for Keldorn and Anomen banters however. From my point of view, chaotic neutral anomen should be more tolerant with hexxat and Dorn (after all he want to destroy the radiant heart when he fail in the test).

Hexxat isn't an evil thief, it's an Emo thief, and by playing with her from SoA to ToB i have no reservations in saying that. Most of the true evil banters are taken with surprise and insatisfaction from her (killing the silver dragon, criticize Dorn's evil patch, state that she doesn't like her undead aka Angel sindrome...).

I really disliked Hexxat NPC so maybe my comments are a bit biased. But the truth is, she's a lot more neutral than evil in behavior, the only evil thing in her behavior is her alignment. The devs tryed to justify her evil alignment with that phrase when you meet her "i will do anything to survive", and not long ago she put her trust in Main Char without knowing him well...

She would be perfect alongside NPCs as Vaylgar (but apparently he enter in conflict with her as well), haer'dalis, jaheira, Imoem, jan jansen. It's just a thief chick that was turned into a vampire against her will.

Mechalibur

kamuizin said:

Hexxat isn't an evil thief, it's an Emo thief, and by playing with her from SoA to ToB i have no reservations in saying that. Most of the true evil banters are taken with surprise and insatisfaction from her (killing the silver dragon, criticize Dorn's evil patch, state that she doesn't like her undead aka Angel sindrome...).

I really disliked Hexxat NPC so maybe my comments are a bit biased. But the truth is, she's a lot more neutral than evil in behavior, the only evil thing in her behavior is her alignment. The devs tryed to justify her evil alignment with that phrase when you meet her "i will do anything to survive", and not long ago she put her trust in Main Char without knowing him well...

Oh no, she's definitely evil, she's just more of a pragmatic evil. Edwin is evil because he's manipulating and thinks of everyone as tools, Viconia is (at first) evil because she is cruel and malicious, Korgan is evil because he's bloodthirsty and greedy, and Dorn is evil because he is power-crazy and ruthless. Hexxat, though? She will do anything to extend her lifespan, even kill innocent people (see her conversation with Aerie). She hates being a vampire, as she will readily explain to Dorn and Rasaad, but she does not hesitate to suck the blood out of anyone, innocent or no, to stay alive, and leads many girls to their deaths trying to free herself. She doesn't go out of her way to inflict suffering or harm others, but if she has to, she will not hesitate. That's why she doesn't instigate any of the in-party fights; she's happy to work with good people, they just can't, in good conscious, tolerate what she does.

She had the choice between dying gracefully and sacrificing others to continue a reflection of her life. She chose to live, and in this case, that's what makes her evil.

Rodi

So yeah. Screw Keldorn. You with your non 18/xx str or my thief GF with 20? Go out to pasture old man, I kicked Mazzy out of her own house for Hexxat too . Seriously, entered her house in trademeet like so:

PC: "Hey, wanna quest? . I bet we could all sorts of adventures!"
Mazzy: "I am not working with that abomination!"
PC: "....Get out."
Mazzy: "But it's my house!"
PC: *points at door and stares*
Mazzy: *leaves*

Hexxat.

kamuizin

@Mechalibur, the behavior you described is neutral, not evil. A Phanter for example need meat to survive, it will eat meat, no matter the source (except of her own specie by rule, in reason genetic programming through instincts put on her by nature). A phanter doesn't kill for pleasure, it kill to survive, if a phanter have to kill another being or starve to death, she will kill.

So, is the phanter evil?

Hexxat has no choice, or she drink blood or she dies. Humans from another side, could survive without eating meat for example (i eat meat, so it's not a radical behavior, just an argument). To cows and other animals in the human food chain, our entire race is evil.

It's a matter of perspective.

[Deleted User]

@kamuizin I suppose the question is, does Hexxat have to kill people in order to survive? If she could get blood from other sources, or could feed in a such a way that it doesn't kill, then she is being needlessly destructive by draining peasants dry. Bodhi keeps "cattle" in her lair, which while arguably worse than killing someone outright, suggests that a vampire that exercises restraint can sustain themselves without killing.

As far as talking about food chains and perspective, I don't want to derail this into a debate about animal rights, but I think that viewpoint ignores the importance of sapience and capacity for suffering. It's not so simple as "everyone has to kill something to survive, so killing in the name of survival is all good."

At the very least, you have articulated a rationale that a neutral character could use to justify keeping Hexxat around.

kamuizin

Whoever @Kaigen, you're put this into a black and white line, if it choose to endure suffering, it's good, if not it's evil. Even some good characters could choose to not endure suffering (the patch of Ilmater), they could only feed on evil people, or people that deserve to die. It's all a question of perspective.

Haer'Dalis is much more argumentably evil than Hexxat, being an embodiement of entropy and worshipping chaos and destruction as a doom guard.

Crend's choose to abandon his children to become a druid can be seen by 2 viewpoints also, from one side he's an very dedicated servant of nature that opened hand of something important to him, from another he's an selfish person that choose to follow his realizations instead of endure the duty intended for him.

While i respect the viewpoint of some people that Hexxat is evil, i just can't see her as evil, she's much more neutral to me, or at least that's the impression i got with her inside an evil party. It's not the discrete evil (hexxat) x the bloodlust evil (valen), but more an issue about a deeper personality.


I don't like Hexxat NPC, her banters displeased me and her interaction with quests and romance disapointed me, but i agree that her personality is interesting, she's much more deeper than a simple neutral evil standart behavior character. Even if she was neutral, she would be still much more deeper than the standart true neutral character. Maybe the Devs change her a bit and add more interjections and strings for her, who knows.

[Deleted User]

@kamuizin The problem is that you're mixing a subjective view of morality, i.e. "It's all a question of perspective" with a system that assigns objective moral labels. I think the fact that Hexxat uses Clara in all the worst ways puts her squarely in the evil category. There are actions that are questionable even in the name of survival.

Lace

Lawful-aligned and many good-aligned characters in this series are good as dictated by their in-game society's rules rather than objectively morally good. For example, Keldorn struggles in his family's quest because his honor dictates that he kill the man who's sleeping with his wife, and have her imprisoned for life for adultery. That response isn't what Keldorn *wants*, but it is an outcome that Keldorn can *accept* as a lawful good-aligned option, even though in our society (sorry, blanket statement, my *perception* of mainstream US American society), death and imprisonment for such an act would be cruel and unusual punishment. Yes, adultery is wrong, but not death or life in prison levels of wrong. More like divorce with an unfavorable settlement levels of wrong.

Thus, I can see a character like Keldorn hating and refusing to work with people that society dictates are evil simply because *society dictates them as evil*. That kinda defines him as a lawful-good character. He would see the fact that Hexxat is actually killing people (or at least feeding on their blood), even if it is just to survive, as proof of his original opinion. That's why I think, from an RP perspective, that the devs made the right call making Keldorn and Hexxat incompatible. Hexxat might be willing to work with Keldorn, but Keldorn's established character is incompatible for working with Hexxat.

kamuizin

It's part of the lawful stupid behavior many state @Lace, keldorn has a lot of that in him even in the old times, with viconia for example. But other kinds of lawful good could easly work with Hexxat.

Another paladin seeing that she was turned against her will could easly link her "evil" nature with her vampirism state, taking in his hand the duty to cure her, for example.

A druid with an more depth vision than the average members of his order could see nature in her unnatural existance, even in death she behave more as a member of the food chain of nature than most of the humans in their society.

An Lawful Neutral Zealot, with the right justifies, could focus her feed in people he would label as guilt (based in whichever zealot behavior this LN character has).

I don't guilt Keldorn for his racism, it's imputed on him by years living in the society he is, but nonetheless he is racist. A Main Char with a high level of charisma should be able to make him see that Hexxat didn't choose her nature, it was imposed on her.