Is BG2:EE Accessible to New Players?
Purudaya
Member Posts: 816
Ok, so there's this article that was posted in the BG2:EE reviews thread:
http://www.twinfinite.net/blog/2013/11/16/baldurs-gate-2-review
While the author clearly didn't put in near the effort that a game reviewer should, I wonder how many casual players who just come across BG2:EE on Steam or in the App Store are going to adapt if they've never played before.
It's easy to direct people to the manuals, but a lot of new players aren't even going to know that they exist since they no longer come with the game (at least BG1:EE had a tutorial). As a fan of BG2:EE and of Beamdog, I want to see the game attract and hold new players - is there anything the devs can do to help newbies with the learning curve? Have manuals accessible through gameplay options maybe, or create a tutorial level? I'll put any constructive ideas, feasible or not, here in the OP.
Thanks to everybody for their input! Ideas so far:
An in-game bestiary, accessible via journal/options
Optional pop-up tutorials to inform players about mechanics like level drain and weapon immunities
In depth "how to play" videos that get into the intricacies of THAC0 and Magic
A playable tutorial, possibly reflecting several levels of gameplay (high-level magic duels, for instance)
An in-game version of the Manuals that can be accessed via the UI
Showing the effects of stat rolls at character creation
A lore encyclopedia/codex that fills with content as you read in-game books
AoE Blast Markers, tied to game difficulty
Displaying Magical effects (eg "spell x blocked by protection y" or "protection z dispelled") in the text log
Anything else?
http://www.twinfinite.net/blog/2013/11/16/baldurs-gate-2-review
While the author clearly didn't put in near the effort that a game reviewer should, I wonder how many casual players who just come across BG2:EE on Steam or in the App Store are going to adapt if they've never played before.
It's easy to direct people to the manuals, but a lot of new players aren't even going to know that they exist since they no longer come with the game (at least BG1:EE had a tutorial). As a fan of BG2:EE and of Beamdog, I want to see the game attract and hold new players - is there anything the devs can do to help newbies with the learning curve? Have manuals accessible through gameplay options maybe, or create a tutorial level? I'll put any constructive ideas, feasible or not, here in the OP.
Thanks to everybody for their input! Ideas so far:
An in-game bestiary, accessible via journal/options
Optional pop-up tutorials to inform players about mechanics like level drain and weapon immunities
In depth "how to play" videos that get into the intricacies of THAC0 and Magic
A playable tutorial, possibly reflecting several levels of gameplay (high-level magic duels, for instance)
An in-game version of the Manuals that can be accessed via the UI
Showing the effects of stat rolls at character creation
A lore encyclopedia/codex that fills with content as you read in-game books
AoE Blast Markers, tied to game difficulty
Displaying Magical effects (eg "spell x blocked by protection y" or "protection z dispelled") in the text log
Anything else?
Post edited by Purudaya on
1
Comments
A simple way for people to access the manuals (or an approximation thereof) from within the game would be a big help imho.
Also, I suppose it is a good idea to use a premade character the first time, and take all the help you can get NPC-wise.
It's not accessible in the way that e.g. Dragon Age is, but the replayability is insane, and definitely worth the investment!
But it's more difficult to jump into BG2 simply because it was designed for people already knowing the basics. So if one of your first enemys is a gibbering in BG1, it's not that challenging as facing an Iron Golem in BG2 for one of the first quests. If you were a BG1 user, you would already know that you would not be able to tickle them to death by means of piercing weapons. And that useful weapons against him need an enchantment to work on them. Once you got that, you see the enchantment with a glance and know instictivly that you should fight or flee. Even without the knowledge, as soon as the feedback "weapons ineffectice" start floating around, you know you are in trouble - that much has nothing to do with the prequel.
So yes, it will work, but the learning curve is higher if you skip BG1. On the other hand, if you are regularly play RPGs some elements will be similar, so it's up to you.
It seems to me that the reviewer would have had much more fun if he had looked at the manual or, indeed, read a single line of dialogue in the game (hint: the characters you know nothing about introduce themselves the first time you talk to them).
Also, it doesn't seem like he's played many games recently (e.g. XCOM has plenty if soldiers trading blows and missing at point blank range) And you'd happily attack with measly ineffective +1 weapons because BG1 didn't have enchantment levels.
At the end of the day, BG is very very hard - there are loads of encounters that are completely unwinnable unless you have prepared specific counters beforehand - at least compared to modern games (e.g. in DA you can keep playing if the protagonist dies as long as you win the fight, and no more shattering party members) and thus reviews like that are hardly surprising.
After that, I tried BG1 and noticed it was rubbish. Way too much aimless wondering around. Still haven't found any time for that game...
So...
Yeah.
Oh right wait, those are also the grown men that 11 year old me would have absolutely slaughtered in a game of chess.
To answer your question OP, BG2 is accessible to newcomers, as long as they have an open mind and are willing to learn a few things.
Opening quest - Old wise man give you a wooden sword. He asks you to go kill a nearby monster. Said monster is a level 100 tanarii or equivalent end game beasts that rips you to shreds as soon as you spot it. The quest of course is optional and can be completed towards the end game, at which point it rewards with 1 XP, and the Old wise man complains about how long it took you to kill it.
Early quest - Kill 10 rats. Except the rats are giant powerful mutant rats that rip you to shreds as above.
An opening tutorial - kill an easy monster. It drops an epic legendary uber wtfpwnbbq super duper weapon. Next part of the tutorial - 'Now learn how to use the storage!' This part cannot be skipped, you have to deposit the uber weapon in the chest .... Game errors, and crashes to log in screen with all garbly images, reloads where you just were, and then the npc says something like 'Whoah, what just happened? I think the world just crashed (or something), oh no, that chest where you placed your weapon, it was destroyed along with the weapon. Too bad.
The last one I tried was Neverwinter. Like OMG WTH did they do to D&D???
Path of Exile is good though, cos its top down fixed camera and what Diablo 3 should have been.
My true love lies here, with turn-based and tactical games. Grindy games are addictive but they wear on you after a while.
Again, I could be wrong and the sales/renewed interest has gone beyond what the devs expected. I just want to see new people recommending this game because (1) BG2 deserves it, and (2) because I want there to be funding for future content : )
I remember playing and getting hit with confusion spells and having no clue what buffs defended properly against them (even with reading the descriptions). I remember wondering why I couldn't hit anything in BG1 and thought that a note in character creation that "level 1 characters are extremely fragile and should approach encounters cautiously" would have done much in acknowledging to the player that it's normal to be having a hard time early on (I used to wonder what I was doing wrong).
For the tutorial videos, I think it would help players to have armor class explained ("some classes can only wear certain armor or no armor at all, so keep this in mind when creating a character"), THAC0 explained in less than 5 sentences, magic attacks and defenses, etc. For instance, I don't know how many new players I've seen ask, "how does backstab work, do I have to be behind them?" on these forums. Basically focus on what's in the manual, just boiled down to the crucial elements.
What would be REALLY awesome would be in game pop-ups that could be turned on/off in the options menu. Ex: "You have been level drained! You will need to cast Restoration to regain your lost levels," or even "One of your party members has died; take them to the nearest temple to have them brought back," each with a "don't show again" button or something. It might seem foreign to veteran players, but I bet it could really help people out if there was a way to script this in.
All praise to your superior intelligence. What does it feel like to be so awesome?
Frankly, although I am the opposite of the short-term gratification impatient types, and generally prefer long, complex and immersive games, elitism and intolerance in 'geekdom' really bugs me.
How accessible BG 2 (and indeed BG 1) is depends on a lot of variables.
1) If you are familiar with AD&D 2nd edition rules.
2) If you are familiar with D&D lore and games in general. (e.g. I am new to the whole thing a few months ago and had no idea what a Gnoll or Kobold was, and every new spell was a new experience... first time I used Fireball was hilarious and I still refuse to use lightning scrolls/wands after what happened the first time...)
3) If you are familiar with RPG games and the fantasy genre in general. At least I knew the basics like 'dwarves are tough, elves are fast, wizards cast spells and ogres are bad'
@Dee
What would be awesome is some sorta ingame guide. Like Civilisation 5's Civilopedia (I am assuming previous Civ games had that feature too, but Civ 5 is the first in the series that I've played), which comprehensively explained what was otherwise a very complicated game. I don't expect a player to read it all, but it is useful to have as a reference guide when you are stuck on something specific.
For example a bestiary with information on stats, resistances and weaknesses of monsters would be really useful. Like the first time I came across a Clay Golem in BG 2, I had no idea why I couldn't hurt it with anything, and it was pure fluke that I had Anomen in my party with the Flail of Ages, cos otherwise I wouldn've been totally stuck and in an area of the game where there was no escape. Currently, even when I do defeat something, I often have no idea which spell made the difference, so I am not really 'learning as I play'...
I know experienced D&D players probably already know 'Greater Wolfweres are immune to all weapons under +4', 'Liches are immune to lv5 spells and lower', 'Clay Golems can only be damaged by blunt magical weapons' etc... but if you want Baldur's Gate to have greater appeal beyond D&D veterans, you have got to stop assuming players have any existing knowledge of D&D lore and mechanics.
I am probably more patient than most, so I have taken the time to learn the game bit by bit, but my options were to find online walkthroughs, which provide far too much detail (and spoilers) or to ask an endless stream of questions on this forum, which is what I did. Personally I have enjoyed the experience immensely and I am really thankful for all those who helped me on the journey, but I honestly feel that the BG games are one of the least beginner friendly I have come across, and many potential new fans are probably put off because they lack the patience to stick with it... And that's not necessarily their fault. It is pretty unusual to be playing a game for about 300 hrs and still coming across new content and surprises. It is AWESOME and why I love it so much, but it can be overwhelming and demoralising at the same time.
I disagree with having tutorial videos, there are thousands of lets play videos of this game on youtube already that any new player can look up.
[quote] I know experienced D&D players probably already know 'Greater Wolfweres are immune to all weapons under +4 [/quote]
You know what? The first time everyone fought them, they had no clue. Thats the whole point that you figure it out and learn from playing, why do you need your hand held through every minor thing and why does anyone else need to tell you how to play?
Your first playthrough, you learn the basics. Your second you get better. Your third through to 100+ you pwn. Why do you want everything to be spoiled on your very first playthough?
In a real PnP D&D game, no one would be holding your hand, you would be learning everything yourself while being at the mercy of the DM.
Let's Plays have the same problem as walkthroughs. Spoilers! This is an RPG, the story is half the game. If I was stuck on say the Demon Knight in Durlag's Tower... how do I check a LP or walkthrough without being sure I won't spoiler the Aec'Letec surprise when I get back to Ulgoth's Beard? Or more specifically the assassins about to ambush me the second I return. The only solution I can see is asking on forums... but not everyone is gonna find this forum, and not everyone is going to bother investing so much effort to learn to play a game.
"Beginning a game by creating a character offers a ton of options with classes and aliments. Far too many options."
Welcome to D&D mr. reviewer... and just remember every one of those classes has a purpose.
"The game starts with you imprisoned in a dungeon and being tortured. Why is this happening? Who are these other adventurers? Those are good questions of which I cannot provide the answer. If I had played the first game perhaps I would give a shit, but for someone who is going in blind, this is not a good beginning."
Well, I'll give him a pass for not knowing anything about Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira at the start and the dungeon does kind of come out of nowhere... But he could've watched the intro cutscene when selecting Shadows of Amn at the start of the game... That summarizes the plot of BG1 and pretty much.
"The combat is also a complete mess. I don’t know if this version is more difficult than the original but I was unaware that RPG’s featured character’s standing there and constantly missing attacks on an enemy. There are plenty of encounters that boiled down to clicking on an opponent and just watching everyone miss each other for what felt like minutes. Trying to look through the stats of your character doesn’t mean anything to if you’re not familiar with the rule set. Why does the armor number go down? What the fuck does THACO mean?"
Characters attack animations play a lot faster than they actually attack, this does kind of make them look like they miss alot more than they actually do... THAC0, with a 0, not an o, To Hit Armor Class 0. It's simple math once you know how to read it and EE made it a lot easier to do so.
"Also, how the hell does magic work? I eventually figured out resting gives you your spells back, but it took far too long." Magic works by being goddamn powerful and getting balanced by being on a spells per day basis for casting.
It takes a bit to get used to all the game mechanics maybe, but BG2 is still easier to jump into than BG1 was... Only thing really that is there is not knowing any of the characters from BG1 that have cameo appearances and the ones that can join your party.