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The resting mechanic

KukarachaKukaracha Member Posts: 256
edited August 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
I have always found that the resting mechanic could easily be abused and provided the player with a cheap way to heal the party, which makes the end of the game very unchallenging as you can simply rest between each fight. I don't think I've ever been to a priest to heal my wounds, and I don't think I've used many taverns too.

Another thread here raised the necessity of a gold sink : at some point in the game, you're simply too rich. Gold coins flow, and the treasure hunting that constitutes a big part of an adventurer's life becomes meaningless. There's no challenge, and there's the weird fact that you can spend a week to complete a very simple task just because you're too lazy to use all your spells and carry potions around. No more magic missiles? I'll just hit that button, a piece of cake.

What I'm suggesting is making healing in cities more attractive, and resting in random locations more restrictive. It should also be more expensive (except at very low levels).

A few suggestions, consider this as food for thought :

- make potions more available
- stronger healing potions should be more expensive
- disable the "rest until healed" possibility (who spends two days playing cards in a random cave?)

Fancier suggestions :

- a maximum 16 hours of rest
- rest never heals you completely...
- ... unless it's in a tavern or done by a priest
- resting takes a very small percentage of your gold.


What do you think?
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Comments

  • KnettgummiKnettgummi Member Posts: 152
    Was "rest until healed" even an option in the original BG1?

    I agree that it doesn't always make sense from a roleplaying perspective (I once woke up after 16 days!), but I feel like this is another one of those things that should be left up to the players to impose their own restrictions as they like. After all, "rest until healed" is optional.
  • KukarachaKukaracha Member Posts: 256
    True, but the idea was more along the lines of capping the resting capacity. For example, being able to rest only once per day, or something like this...
    I don't remember if the "rest until healed" option was present in BG1, but players can very well just hit that button repeatedly.
  • drakerddrakerd Member Posts: 23
    The resting mechanic in pretty well all D&D games (I haven't played every single one of them, but a good majority at least) is never really well done. @knettgummi in BG1 there was not the rest until healed, but that wouldn't stop me from using all my heal spells, sleeping, then doing it again just to be max health. In BG series the rest mechanic isn't perfect but it's a million times better than in the NWN series. My god resting in that game was a joke. Never walked into a fight without being 100% prepped. Either way, yes I would like to see some kind of limitation or ruleset setup about this. Even in PnP D&D resting can be a pain and I have to enforce the idea on my players that you can't walk into an evil wizards dungeon, get halfway through and then just be like "oh, well we should probably rest up here for 8+ hours. He's not going to do anything to defend his dungeon or thwart us while we sleep right?" Shoot, if I were that evil wizard I would wait till they rest then drop in with Improved Invisibility and slinging fireballs. Annnnnnyways, I'm not sure if they plan on doing anything about this. Maybe also increase the possibility of wandering monsters on rest unless you're in a known secure location?
  • e3r4t5yne3r4t5yn Member Posts: 42
    >A few suggestions, consider this as food for thought :
    >
    >- make potions more available
    are they less available?
    >- stronger healing potions should be more expensive
    aren't they more expensive?

    >Fancier suggestions :
    >
    >- a maximum 16 hours of rest
    why?
    >- rest never heals you completely...
    ???
    >- resting takes a very small percentage of your gold.
    why???
  • KnettgummiKnettgummi Member Posts: 152
    drakerd said:

    Maybe also increase the possibility of wandering monsters on rest unless you're in a known secure location?

    I like this idea. Should be a simple tweak of an already existing game mechanic, and it makes good sense. I also wouldn't mind if more locations were straight up impossible resting places. Both of these could "scale" with increasing game difficulty.
  • KukarachaKukaracha Member Posts: 256
    edited August 2012
    e3r4t5yn said:

    >A few suggestions, consider this as food for thought :
    >
    >- make potions more available
    are they less available?
    >- stronger healing potions should be more expensive
    aren't they more expensive?

    >Fancier suggestions :
    >
    >- a maximum 16 hours of rest
    why?
    >- rest never heals you completely...
    ???
    >- resting takes a very small percentage of your gold.
    why???

    The idea is to make healing potions more available because they would be crucial for every moment of the game. If I remember correctly, not all merchants have some, and they eventually run out.

    The second idea is to make stronger healing potions more expensive than their current price (they're obviously more expensive than minor counterparts).

    About the fancy ideas :

    - a maximum 16 hours of sleep to encourage the use of taverns, priests and potions;
    - incomplete healing for the same reasons;
    - a (very) small fee, for, again, the same reasons.


    Everything here also addresses the RP perspective (who would sleep 16 days in the face of a dragon?) and the necessity of a gold sink (see this thread ), raising the difficulty by a little (but not too much) and giving once again a meaning to all that money you collect.

    Post edited by Kukaracha on
  • psyactpsyact Member Posts: 81
    Resting in a forest or an unsecured location shouldn't heal you as much as it would in a defensible cave or an inn, chances of an encounter notwithstanding. Honestly, I very rarely rested outdoors; I would usually travel to an inn or sleep in a cave or something (which would make more sense). I don't think I ever used the "rest until healed" option.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    Discussed here already.
  • oldsch00loldsch00l Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 192

    drakerd said:

    Maybe also increase the possibility of wandering monsters on rest unless you're in a known secure location?

    I like this idea. Should be a simple tweak of an already existing game mechanic, and it makes good sense. I also wouldn't mind if more locations were straight up impossible resting places. Both of these could "scale" with increasing game difficulty.
    That's the idea. In P&P my dungeons masters used to say "no you can't rest here" in the example of @drakerd. He would say you cloud go back to rest in a safer place but when you returned, evil mage was more than ready for you ;-).
    Random encounters when you rest in not so safe place in also very logical. You don't die of course but rest is interrupted and you have to start again spell memorization. :-p
  • MReedMReed Member Posts: 25
    I don't really think the concept of "wandering monster while sleeping" works well in the BG framework -- some players would end up abusing the mechanic for XP farming. BG games are balanced with the notion that there is X amount of experience available in each chapter, and having the ability to farm XP would mess up the balance at least as much as unlimited resting. Note that I don't object to some wandering monster encounters, but they should be customized for specific areas and only run once (which is the way it works today).

    I also disagree with removing the "Rest until healed" option -- all removing it does is add tedium (change your cleric's / druid's spells to all healing, rest 8 hours, cast all spells, rest, cast, and finally reset the spellbook back to what you want) without actually addressing the underlying issue.

    I like the notion of having "rations" (that must be purchased) that are consumed when resting (unless resting outdoors with a Ranger in the party) combined with "No resting if their are hostile monster's on the map, not just in your immediate area" would be sufficient to address this issue.

    Rations should be both expensive or bulky -- a days worth of generic food, after all, would be a pound or two / person / day, and with a standard party of 6, I don't see treating a "rest" (e.g. 8 hours) as a day and therefore stating that 10 pounds of food are consumed (available at a cost of 5 gold). On the other hand "magic" rations might weigh only 2 pounds, but cost 50 gold / "rest".

    Note that the smallest rest interval usable with the "Rest until healed" option would be 3 rests (24 hours) -- one to memorize all healing spells, one to cast them, and one to restore the original spellbooks. This would give players a true dilemma: Give up 60 pounds of encumbrance (& 15 gold) to "Rest until healed" 3 times OR pay 50*9 = 450 gold (& an inventory slot), OR keep a ranger in the party and retreat to an outdoor area to rest.

    Adding dilemma's is a good thing when it comes to game design... :)
  • KnettgummiKnettgummi Member Posts: 152
    edited August 2012
    Yes, the idea of rations occurred to me as well, and I'd love to try it out as it would add a whole new "long term" strategic aspect to game.

    While it seems highly unlikely that EE would add such a complex new concept to the game, I think this would be a fantastic idea for a mod -- someone with the skills should get on this! :P

    Edit: forgot I was gonna mention Fallout 1 here: something I love about the first (two) Fallout game(s) is how sparse ammunition is -- especially for the more effective weapons. Not only does that really make sense in the Fallout setting, but it adds a very important strategic element of planning to the game (at least in the earlier parts). Requiring rations to rest could introduce a similar element to BG...
  • oldsch00loldsch00l Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 192
    Rations could also solve the gold sink problem ;-)
  • dandydandy Member Posts: 35
    I tend to RP when I rest in Dungeons. I find a small, closed of area (for instance, the break away in Firkraggs dungeon, just before the wolfwere trap and next to the Golem room), RP that I'm setting guards, cast protection spells, lay traps and glyphs of warding, ect.
    If I do get disturbed while sleeping, I've got everything set
  • dandydandy Member Posts: 35
    I like the idea of rations, with a mechanic similar to fatigue affecting you should you not eat for too long, but having some spells (like goodberrys) to count as rations would be cool.
  • KnettgummiKnettgummi Member Posts: 152
    That would be a neat use for an otherwise useless spell.
  • cloakanddaggercloakanddagger Member Posts: 111
    I'm going to go ahead and contradict myself right off the bat and say; yes the resting mechanic is somewhat illogical in the sense that you can sleep in hostile areas and also wake up completely healed, but damn it can be really useful in some situations. I also think that there should be some realism added to the resting mechanic, but we have to remember situations like when you are in the Nashkel mines, at some point you will run out of potions and spells. Yet as I type this I also think to myself that proper preparation for a trip to the Nashkel mines would solve that. So in the end my vote is to definitely take away the full healing aspect of the sleep mechanic and also add some restrictions on when you can use it. Also lets stir up some talk about sleeping in the streets of any town or city, and you are always awoken by the guard, what do people think about this?
  • dandydandy Member Posts: 35
    Awaken by a guard? Simple solution. Pause. Rest. Interrupted. Still Paused. Rest again until you stop getting interrupted.

    I would like to see a choice for resting, so everyone is happy with their style
  • CambionDaystarCambionDaystar Member Posts: 7
    5 gold for some rations? Do you have any idea about the value of gold in a D&D game? How about a few copper pieces or silver pieces at most. A gold piece is what an average peasant earns in a month.
    Also regarding rations, it is assumed that your party forages when they travel (shoot some rabbits, collect water,...), so they shouldn't be needed.
    How about adding something like bandages to speed up healing when you rest?
  • MReedMReed Member Posts: 25

    5 gold for some rations? Do you have any idea about the value of gold in a D&D game? How about a few copper pieces or silver pieces at most. A gold piece is what an average peasant earns in a month.
    Also regarding rations, it is assumed that your party forages when they travel (shoot some rabbits, collect water,...), so they shouldn't be needed.
    How about adding something like bandages to speed up healing when you rest?

    Heh -- yeah, I'm fully aware that 5 gold is way, way too much for "standard" rations (the weight is likely too high as well). However, in my defense:
    1) The absolute minimum price is 1 gold for anything in BG -- engine limitations. Introducing silver / copper pieces simply for the purpose of allow more realistic ration pricing would be silly, to say the least. :)
    2) The 5 gold cost is for enough rations for 6 people for 1 "rest" (~day, since rations are only consumed when you rest), not 1 person / day. Yes, this means that if you are playing with fewer than 6 people you are deliberately making the game harder, and I don't think you can legitimately complain. So the price per person day is less than 1 gold.
    3) The BG (as with most computer RPGs) economy is fundamentally broken in any case. Random peasants give out 10+ gold rewards for completing trivial tasks all the time when that's more money than they should earn in a lifetime.
    4) Due the previous, 5 gold is expensive enough (early on, at least) to make the player go "Do I really need this?".

    In regards to hunting, agreed. Thus, the reason that rations aren't necessary if you are resting outdoors. I'm making the simplifying assumption, however, that food gathered "on the move" has to be consumed immediately or is lost, and you can't gather a lot of "extra" in any case. To do otherwise would end up making the mechanic far more complex than it needs to be.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Well, I think that this is caused by another problem - inadequate healing for low to mid level parties. It's only after you start to get regeneration rings, mass healing or the heal spell that the healing in the game is proportional to your hitpoints.
    For me, the restocking of spells is the biggest problem here, and it is usually just a side effect of needing to rest due to low health.
    If something could be done about the first problem ,then the second would not be a problem.
  • KukarachaKukaracha Member Posts: 256
    I agree, which is why I believe potions should more available and necessary through the whole game.
  • cloakanddaggercloakanddagger Member Posts: 111
    @dandy Yes, but i'm not trying to find a way to cheat the process/mechanic, I think by adding some depth to the rules with the guard, and possible areas on the streets you can sleep would be fun. Maybe you could share a peasant hovel for the night.
  • NecdilzorNecdilzor Member Posts: 279
    I think some of this things could be implemented at a higher difficulty.
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    Remember a lot of dungeons and maps don't _let_ you rest in them. I don't remember BG1 specifically, but isn't that the case? If you want to rest at the bottom of Nashkel mine, you need to trek your ass back up to the top and go outside. You can rest before the final fight, but you pay for it with tedium. I just think a lot of us are used to the 'rest anywhere' mod.
  • KukarachaKukaracha Member Posts: 256
    I brought it back from the dead, but I couldn't kill this one!
  • luluscadoluluscado Member Posts: 69
    I agree with op resting was kind of a copout one i used lots on my first couple of play throughs. It would be better if it was restricted to once a day to make you think about it more.
  • KhamillKhamill Member Posts: 226
    How about a " setting a camp" option. Sorry if some features was mentioned before, I know there was:)
    1) You can set it only once a day.
    2) You can pick one party member as a guard, who's healing recovery would be halved or select few members for taking the shifts( each member's recovery would be decreased in "X" percentage as he is taking the shift ) "X" no. vary, depend of no of shifts. Possesing meat would slightly increase recovery.
    3) Setting an area perimeter whithin You can set traps in order to alert the party about incoming threat.
    4) Alerted party would suffer no penalty when attacked plus guarding member inflicts critical first hit.
    5) Not having a guard nor traps set when been abushed gives your team a "cought by suprise" status for first 3 rounds, which dicrease their strenght and dexterity by 1.

    Well thats really all i can think of, for now. What do you think of it?
    P.S sorry for my english It's not my native language:)
  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    perhaps for the higher difficulties there could be more no-resting allowed zones, pots are fine imo,but yes resting above 8hrs is kinda lame...thought not recovering fully in non combat zones would be just annoying...no right or wrong here but definately some space for improvement.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    I diasgree with a lot of this. First of all, rations in D&D were never that expensive, and there is something called Iron Rations, which are essentially like powerbars, the medieval version. The difference between that and normal rations is that you have to drink more water with iron rations, to make up what you aren't getting from the food. Given that, though. Eating a day's worth of "Good" food for one person is a mere 5sp or 1/2 gp. Even staying in an inn for a day in common lodgings is 3sp (2gp for a week) in the 2e Player's Handbook. And, by making food have large amounts of weight and giving up an inventory space for that- uh I don't think so. It seems you want to make up for the "tedium" of healing by adding an even worse tedium of having to keep track of food.

    I don't mind adding something in the game to spend money on- a house or something. But, food is not it. At least the house adds something- a place to go, where you can keep stuff you might need later but don't need right now. Food just adds unnecessary tedium to the entire game. Should the designers add pillaging/stealing food from kitchens so that you can steal food as well as loot? I think that dealing with food is adding something to the game it doesn't really need. And don't forget Druids- they could add to the party's store of food as well. So anyone traveling with the "standard" BG2 party with Jaheira and Minsc (Druid and Ranger) could live off the land and not have to worry about buying and carrying food, let's not forget.

    So, you are only going to penalize some party builds (evil, mainly, since Rangers and Druids won't hang out with an evil party), and not others... No, I do not agree.
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