Dorn's romance and character development *MASSIVE SPOILERS*
trinit
Member Posts: 705
ok, so i finished evil playthrough all the way to TOB with dorn, viconia, hexxat, korgan and edwin.
first let me say, i'm now officially disappointed. dorn is an interesting character with lot of potential but:
romance track is WAY too short.
in those 10 lovetalks or so, that take about four clicks to go through, there are one-two that perhaps offer some substantial information. dorn reveals no background (let's ignore the bg:ee since it is a separate game), no layers to his character (ironically, he even warns about this in one of his lovetalks) and almost no worthwhile thought beside his power obsessions.
this is also the greatest weakness i see: he is so very one-dimensional with his desires and seems incapable of thinking beyond acquisition of power (as opposed to possible applications, meanings and forms of power, if that simply must be all he thinks about) and slaughter (since there is no other stuff to talk about in their uneventful journeys, is there).
it almost looks like somebody has cut out additional content that should have been there and left only stuff that concern this side of his character. like it or not, evil or not, time and casual fillers are necessary to make something feel believable, as original romances in bg2 have shown. i also find the talk with fighting a bit odd- nothing to lead to it and there is no conclusion to it (not necessarily apology).
after having sex, there is no morning after-comment, which also seems very artificial.
in short, all the important details that signify intimacy or evolution of relationship are simply non-present. i understand dorn is evil and is intended for evil charnames, but if those two are to be THE dark couple there has to be some measure of trust, intimacy and character development or adaptation (again, not toward good alignment). i imagine such twisted couple with all their nuances would be a real treat for a writer.
like i mentioned before, because of the described lack of the motivation and characterization i do not see why those two are lovers beyond occasional sex or where the final proclamation of love even comes from.
i understand if you wanted to avoid therapy sessions and wanted to pronounce the confidence and his focused character but the problem is that you offered nothing in return. TOB has TWO love-talks for crying out loud, it simply ridiculous (not counting the gromnir warning and final talk).
next point-where are interjections? i counted a comment here or there in SOA,, still substantially less than original NPC's, many missed opportunities (like kangaxx, underdark kuo-toa altar and many more evil or otherwise themed encounters) but only two or three in TOB. He didn't notice a single thing in watchers keep, really disappointing. i will spare the rant how interjections make characters feel alive and such
in the end epilogues- non romanced version seems fine i think, romanced version and bhaalspawn is not a god is sad and bitter-tasting, i was hoping they could be rulers somewhere but it is what it is. what it bothers me is that there is no third epilogue for romanced dorn and ascension to goodhood, where some hint or mention of him becoming your proxy or something to that extent, since that such an overarching point those two times he actually talks in tob. (btw, the last talk before mellisan is really good, i wish for more things like that). epilogues also completely ignore his fallen or patronage status
i find more than occasional lack of voiced first line in lovetalks disturbing since first line is ALWAYS voiced, so integrations is not completely seamless.
so in terms of character interaction if he had more content than original paper thin npc's in bg, he now has comparable less than original bg2 npc's. unfortunatly it doesn't "even out" in my opinion. these are separate games with separate interaction mechanics.
on the other hand, quests are very well done, the one in TOB seems a bit simplistic (although saemon part is GREAT. i only wish there was a way to watch him get killed and knowing it was bhaalspawn who set him up. excellent addition). it was nice to see him obedient to ur-gothoz and plotting to get out of the deal.
it actually is nice to have some evil quests to do, and i understand the quests are a part of character content, although they cannot be considered a compensation for lack of the lovetalks.
dorn has a GREAT voice actor and some great lines. those few times that he is good, he shows a lot of potential as a really interesting, charismatic, focused character. i liked how serious and passionate he seemed at times, i really wish that was explored and played with. PC responses are at times simply great i really, really appreciate the humor there. great writing.
EDIT: just to mention i really wanted to enjoy it and i really did a lot in some places, but there is not enough to make it a completely satisfying experience.
so yeah, i'm complaining because in this state, dorn remains a very good, promising sketch for a character with nice quests and nice evil addition to the party. if you look for another party member he is all well and good, but as a romance interest... not so much, he is simply not up to existing romances. i suspect i hold unpopular opinion and am in the minority, but i needed to voice my thoughts on this since i invested so much mental energy into the forums and the game over this year and half. i had expectations so maybe it's my own fault for getting dissapointed in the end.
on the other hand, does anybody plan to do a mod with additional romance content and flirt packs for the new characters? maybe even add some of the talks from bg:ee to bg2:ee to make characters feel more realized? have developers thought to release character expansions?
first let me say, i'm now officially disappointed. dorn is an interesting character with lot of potential but:
romance track is WAY too short.
in those 10 lovetalks or so, that take about four clicks to go through, there are one-two that perhaps offer some substantial information. dorn reveals no background (let's ignore the bg:ee since it is a separate game), no layers to his character (ironically, he even warns about this in one of his lovetalks) and almost no worthwhile thought beside his power obsessions.
this is also the greatest weakness i see: he is so very one-dimensional with his desires and seems incapable of thinking beyond acquisition of power (as opposed to possible applications, meanings and forms of power, if that simply must be all he thinks about) and slaughter (since there is no other stuff to talk about in their uneventful journeys, is there).
it almost looks like somebody has cut out additional content that should have been there and left only stuff that concern this side of his character. like it or not, evil or not, time and casual fillers are necessary to make something feel believable, as original romances in bg2 have shown. i also find the talk with fighting a bit odd- nothing to lead to it and there is no conclusion to it (not necessarily apology).
after having sex, there is no morning after-comment, which also seems very artificial.
in short, all the important details that signify intimacy or evolution of relationship are simply non-present. i understand dorn is evil and is intended for evil charnames, but if those two are to be THE dark couple there has to be some measure of trust, intimacy and character development or adaptation (again, not toward good alignment). i imagine such twisted couple with all their nuances would be a real treat for a writer.
like i mentioned before, because of the described lack of the motivation and characterization i do not see why those two are lovers beyond occasional sex or where the final proclamation of love even comes from.
i understand if you wanted to avoid therapy sessions and wanted to pronounce the confidence and his focused character but the problem is that you offered nothing in return. TOB has TWO love-talks for crying out loud, it simply ridiculous (not counting the gromnir warning and final talk).
next point-where are interjections? i counted a comment here or there in SOA,, still substantially less than original NPC's, many missed opportunities (like kangaxx, underdark kuo-toa altar and many more evil or otherwise themed encounters) but only two or three in TOB. He didn't notice a single thing in watchers keep, really disappointing. i will spare the rant how interjections make characters feel alive and such
in the end epilogues- non romanced version seems fine i think, romanced version and bhaalspawn is not a god is sad and bitter-tasting, i was hoping they could be rulers somewhere but it is what it is. what it bothers me is that there is no third epilogue for romanced dorn and ascension to goodhood, where some hint or mention of him becoming your proxy or something to that extent, since that such an overarching point those two times he actually talks in tob. (btw, the last talk before mellisan is really good, i wish for more things like that). epilogues also completely ignore his fallen or patronage status
i find more than occasional lack of voiced first line in lovetalks disturbing since first line is ALWAYS voiced, so integrations is not completely seamless.
so in terms of character interaction if he had more content than original paper thin npc's in bg, he now has comparable less than original bg2 npc's. unfortunatly it doesn't "even out" in my opinion. these are separate games with separate interaction mechanics.
on the other hand, quests are very well done, the one in TOB seems a bit simplistic (although saemon part is GREAT. i only wish there was a way to watch him get killed and knowing it was bhaalspawn who set him up. excellent addition). it was nice to see him obedient to ur-gothoz and plotting to get out of the deal.
it actually is nice to have some evil quests to do, and i understand the quests are a part of character content, although they cannot be considered a compensation for lack of the lovetalks.
dorn has a GREAT voice actor and some great lines. those few times that he is good, he shows a lot of potential as a really interesting, charismatic, focused character. i liked how serious and passionate he seemed at times, i really wish that was explored and played with. PC responses are at times simply great i really, really appreciate the humor there. great writing.
EDIT: just to mention i really wanted to enjoy it and i really did a lot in some places, but there is not enough to make it a completely satisfying experience.
so yeah, i'm complaining because in this state, dorn remains a very good, promising sketch for a character with nice quests and nice evil addition to the party. if you look for another party member he is all well and good, but as a romance interest... not so much, he is simply not up to existing romances. i suspect i hold unpopular opinion and am in the minority, but i needed to voice my thoughts on this since i invested so much mental energy into the forums and the game over this year and half. i had expectations so maybe it's my own fault for getting dissapointed in the end.
on the other hand, does anybody plan to do a mod with additional romance content and flirt packs for the new characters? maybe even add some of the talks from bg:ee to bg2:ee to make characters feel more realized? have developers thought to release character expansions?
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Comments
Also, did you not get the scene where
i also miss an epilogue to acknowledge this status- if charname ascended and dorn has a patron, that is surely very different than dorn free to become charname's worshipper/avatar.
and suldanessellar scene is good
and since you're here, i'm very interested in your thoughts once you finish the game. i remember your thread with praises for dorn in bg2:ee. i wish i shared that opinion. :P
EDIT: added spoiler tags
2. In my (admittedly limited) experience, it's rare for a guy-on-guy RPG romance to actually accentuate physical attraction - Zevran's standards are so low it doesn't really matter if he's actually drawn to you or not, Steve Cortez falls for Shepard because he's kind to him, the thought doesn't even cross Sky's mind until the Spirit Monk actually brings it up in conversation, etc. But Dorn has no problem admitting outright that he wants sex. It's a rather refreshing approach.
3. I cannot wait to hear Dorn threaten both Irenicus and Melissan - proving once and for all that Evil romances are possible without fundamentally changing a character (ie: Viconia).
4. Like I said before, I do think the fact that Dorn is okay with you giving up a chance at divinity (even if you promised to share that power with him) is an indicator of his growth as a character - he starts BG2:EE still believing that power is the only thing that matters, but by the end of his storyline, he'd rather be with you than serve you as an all-powerful avatar.
Whether these details coalesce into a coherent "big picture" or not is something I'll only know further down the line... but taken individually, they certainly seem in line with the romance arcs alloted to the other characters...
Ran through TLKfile and find only 2 epilogues – with and without romance. And, well, with-romance-and-ascending equals without romance. After all those “yeah, I will share my godpower with you, Dorn” and “just ascend at last!” – that’s strange. I really thought that he will become some sort of an avatar of new God of Murder or his/her blackguard (and obviously get himself killed ‘cause evil boys and girls never get their happy endings), but not…well…what I saw at the epilogues.
And I agree with @trinit – Dorn is cool character with wonderful voiceacting and interesting quests, but he lacks some more content. We love talking to our companions
He’s got some great dialogues (maybe even most of them are great) and I really liked him but now after finishing my playthrough I’m a little upset by the lack of talking and information about Dorn. And by only 2 epilogues %)
It was late night and I could express the idea in a strange way %)
@Vargnatt: Admittedly, I kind of like the idea that Dorn's fate is inevitable one way or another - he is who he is, after all. The romance adds a bittersweet tone that works well given the way the relationship plays out in the game.
as for the other points you raise:
1. that scene is good, yes
2. completely agree
3. you won't HEAR him threaten irenicus, you will read it. that line is also not voiced unfortunately. i also do not remember him ever threatening mellisan directly. btw, changing viconia's alignment is completely optional in romance, she can remain evil and she features different reactions and lovetalks later on. unless you mean something else under fundamental change?
4. i think that is debatable, it seems more to me he is okay with either option, not that he would prefer charbame remaining mortal. but, while he is ok with you refusing power, possibility is never (or extremely vaguely) discussed prior to that.
i was actually really surprised at the reaction when i tested this outcome, i would love a talk or two involving dorn's thoughts if charname would refuse the power, heck, it could be a whole relationship arc in TOB where he accepts your hypothetical decision because charname is more important than divinity (although charname should still desire reasonable mortal amount of power, else dorn breaks up).
just to be clear, i'm not suggesting redemption, drastic changes to character or alignment changes.
so in general, i cannot disagree with what you say, but it is all underdeveloped and a bit underwhelming IMO. i don't feel the writing (of a relationship) is satisfying if i have to rationally draw easily refutable conclusions because i don't sense or feel what is going on between characters.
but yeah, best to talk about this when you play the game. i'm open to be proven wrong.
@Vargnatt i know exactly what you mean and agree.
on the other note- does anybody know if dorn would be able to become some immortal servant/something of charname after death, as a favoured soul or something like that?
@LiamEsler i said i would play through tob and post my opinion on dorn so here it is. i would also like at least one developer to hear my ramblings before this thread sinks into obscurity.
It really is great to read feedback, good and bad, and I really appreciate you taking the time to give it!
@LiamEsler yes, well i'm glad if it helped you. i also appreciate the intention and work done up to this point and wish you well in the future.
Personally, I never thought romancing this particular character would be the same as, say, Aerie - you could tell that even in BG:EE where you could kiss Neera or Rasaad, but not Dorn. Part of that probably stems from his backstory (both Kryll and Dorotea are implied to have taken advantage of him before Simmeon's betrayal), but it may also be because he prefers action to words.
This changes a little in ToB, but not by a whole lot.
and in regard to my previous posts, i did not even vaguely expect dorn to be comparable to aerie (or jaheira or anomen or viconia for that matter) but i did expect some insight even if into this "shallowness" of his, instead of him simply being underdeveloped.
BUT ironically, i see quite a bit of implication that dorn is not that shallow. unfortunately it also remains implication.
while this gives me an answer i can cope with, it's a pity, really. i was hoping for intriguing or complex evil NPC that would make epic and worthwhile duo in evil playthrough, not for...shallowness, that already seems abundant in d&d world.
again, i still think there is not enough content and there are some questionable design decisions, but it seems i had too different vision of this character along with expectations of somehow satisfying male non-straight romance, and shallow NPC wasn't part of that construction.
since i am obviously quite disappointed i don't know how else to vocalize this except whining in the forum until i get a reaction. i don't really know what else to say, but this has been a sad (for me) conclusion to expectation built over year and a half... i will return to bg2:ee in time since it is still a worthwhile game but i think i will focus my energy devoted to gaming elsewhere for the time being. thank you for the attention.
edit:forgot to tag and put some final thoughts
Reread post and now I think I just need 5 more talks about strength and charname being the coolest bhaalspawn, ‘cause I really like his “let’s kill some people and then let’s copulate” *facepalm*
*and by insight i mean developed in-game track, not speculations and explanations i'm perfectly capable of drawing myself.
And for reasons why he is with charname @LiamEsler already gave an answer – Dorn is attracted by charnames power not by charname herself/himself. And it’s normal for an evil character that was meant to stay evil while he is in relationship with charname. It’s even more normal if charname is evil too. They can be comrades with benefits or they can have worldburning passion for each other but the thing is – it will not last long. That’s how evil do such things. That doesn’t mean that evil couple doesn’t talk to each other and just kill people and copulate, but they just perceive their relationships in a different way than others.