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Kensai: Katana or Longsword

After having a great Kensai run in BG1 with Scimitars I am regretting my choice as in BG2 there doesn't seem to be anything better than a +3 Scimitar. I am going to change my 5* mastery to either Katanas or Longswords in EEkeeper tonight. Katanas are cool, but there seems to be a far higher variety of Longswords. What's the best course for a dual wielder? Level 9 Kensai, 5* weapon mastery, 3* Two weapon style, dc'd to Mage 11.
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  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    There's a +5 scimitar in BG2 although it can be somewhat tricky to get. However, given the choice between katanas and long swords I'd go with katanas every time, although that's only because I have meta-knowledge and know where to find everything. I'd say you can't go wrong with either weapon though. I'm not quite sure if you are looking for spoilers or not but at the very least I can spoil that the best katana can be found really early on in the game while the best long sword is quite some time away.
  • jukagajukaga Member Posts: 49
    Spoil away, I played the originals to death years ago but have forgotten many details.
  • toshirotoshiro Member Posts: 113
    They did add some in BG II, at least they have in Black Pit addition. So can't be sure there in the game it self.
  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    edited November 2013
    Well, in that case the reason for me choosing katana over longsword is quite simply that Celestial fury(found on Koshi in the guarded compound in the temple district) is one of the, if not the, best weapons in the game. It's only +3, but it's save or be stunned effect works on pretty much every single enemy in the game(even golems!) and a stunned enemy is a dead enemy! The best long sword(IMHO anyway) is Blackrazor from the hell trials but you only get that at the very end of SoA and you need to choose the evil path in the relevant trial(permanently making you evil) which may or may not be an option for roleplay reasons. If the daystar +2/+4 vs evil(found in the hidden room of the gate district inn) actually counted as a +4 weapon then I'd be much more inclined to favour long swords but as far as I know it still strikes as a +2 weapon making it pretty bad against the more powerful undead beasties(famous examples being greater mummies needing +3, demi-liches needing +4).

    There are however some weapons(both long swords and katanas) added by ToB and among those I'd say the edge goes to long swords. The greater restoration on Hindo's doom(katana +3 or +4 with upgrade) is sweet but you can just keep that in another slot because the weapon itself isn't that impressive. That being said, Celestial fury is imho better than all of them, with the caveat that you can't beat some monsters like demi-liches.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    They've added a couple of nice Scimitars in 2EE. there's Water's Edge +3 and another that is +3 whose name escapes me, and another one that's +2 and gives you a +1 Dexterity bonus.

    I always prefer longswords to katana, though Celestial Fury is by far the best weapon in SoA. Good advice would be to switch to katana, and then just put points in longsword later for ones like Angurvadal.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    blade of roses +3 can be found very early in the game as well ( +3 longsword) so either one would be fine
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Yeah, but the main benefit of using CF isn't its +3ness, but its stun ability, which BoR does not have.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    The benefit of scimitars is Belm which is in BG2. There's also Scarlet Ninja To which is a +3 equivilent to belm, but unusable by fighter / mages, plus there's a couple of named +4 Scimitars, and a +5 one too, whereas katanas are +3 max.

    There aren't many high level Katanas, but the one with bonus spell slots is worth building for, Longswords are good, and also a better choice in BP2 for enchanted weapons spell.

    If your dual classed to a mage then Id rather go with Quarterstaffs in BG2 for staff of power / staff of the magi, and for melee damage BBOD outclasses any dual wielded weapons in the game, perhaps except foe Crom Faeyr. And phantom blade destroys most undead, except any that are immune to +3 weapons, but BBOD works on those.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,042
    Mungri said:

    There aren't many high level Katanas

    "*snicker* Hindo's Doom! Can you say it? Hindo's DOOOOOM..."

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    Isn't that the only one, and only +3? In which case I was correct, one is not many. And BBOD is still better, and shapechange on a kensai / mage.
  • I had +++ Longsword and +++++ Flail for my Kensai.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,042
    Mungri said:

    Isn't that the only one, and only +3? In which case I was correct, one is not many. And BBOD is still better, and shapechange on a kensai / mage.

    Yes, it is +3 depending upon what you do with it. I didn't disagree with you, of course--there simply aren't many highly-enchanted katanas. Logically, there is no reason why this should be so--yes, the physical process by which katanas are crafted do make them a better blade than even a well-crafted longsword *but* that doesn't necessarily mean that katanas are inherently better than longswords, only different. In a world with magic, every type of blade would wind up being enchanted to some degree or another, depending upon the wealth of the client. We know there are mages in the East of Faerun so why wouldn't they make +4 or even +5 katanas, wakizashis, ninja-to, jiann--you don't see *any* of those in the game--or other varieties? Why not give your assassin a kris that also wounds? If you like halberds then how about an enchanted latajang (a weapon used in Kuntao)? Druids can use clubs so can they also use bokken?
    Why stay Oriental? How about an enchanted Italian-style rapier that has a reach of 2 and does extra piercing damage?

    I'm on a tangent, aren't I?

  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Scimitar, Flails, Longsword, and Katana in that preferential order. With Scimitars, you can get some nice ninja-tos in TOB, and there's always off-hand belm for that extra attack on the main-hand weapon.

    With Flails, Flail of Ages is a no-brainer, but Defender of Easthaven, on top of being a decent +3 weapon, lowers your AC a bit and grants defense bonuses to all physical damage.

    Longswords are pretty common honestly, so there's always good options for them.

    As for Katanas... well... Hindo's Doom is your end-game option, but really it's the only +4 katana available, and Celestial Fury is good for most of SoA and early TOB, but endgame it's 'meh'.

    So take your pick.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    Katanas are the highest base damage 1 Handed weapon hence why they were kept so limited, plus the excuses via the lore were just cover ups for that fact. Throughout the most of the game they are hard to find and their magic values are always lower than other weapons, meaning a 1d8 +3 longsword only has 1 less damage, but an extra +1 to hit than a 1d10 +2 katana.

    Then there's also bastard swords, apparently better because their minimum damage is higher, but in practice their attack speed is too slow, and an extra 1 point of min damage is insignificant when you have the Kai ability. Still, BBOD > almost every dual wield option for a Kensai / Mage, so by the end game weapon choice is insignificant.
    Post edited by Mungri on
  • AcridSyphilisAcridSyphilis Member Posts: 129
    whats bbod?
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Big bag of... ducks. Yeah, let's go with "ducks".

    You may have heard "go suck a BBoD" used as an insult.
  • KithrixxKithrixx Member Posts: 215

    Yes, it is +3 depending upon what you do with it. I didn't disagree with you, of course--there simply aren't many highly-enchanted katanas. Logically, there is no reason why this should be so--yes, the physical process by which katanas are crafted do make them a better blade than even a well-crafted longsword *but* that doesn't necessarily mean that katanas are inherently better than longswords, only different.

    Katanas aren't "strictly better blades", are you kidding? They're awful weapons. In the real world, they're light swords that are useful only for unarmored or lightly armored combat - if you swing them too hard they're liable to shatter. Here, have an article about it. Katanas are intended to be as light and as fast as possible because of the honor-based dueling that happened all the time on the battlefield and the lack of armor that was common to those times.

    The closest thing to a katana in the western world is the rapier, which is essentially the same thing except it's made for stabbing rather than slicing. While rapiers are nice and all, they're hardly multi-purpose - it takes an extreme amount of skill to deal damage to an armored opponent when you're wielding a rapier, as does harming an armored opponent with a katana. With a longsword, you just hit them anyways. It's a bashing weapon as much as it is a cutting weapon. The katana may excel in a handful of areas (namely unarmored combat), but the general purpose strength of the longsword outclasses it by far.
  • SharnSharn Member Posts: 188
    There is a +4 scimitar with a chance to proc lightning damage on the first level of watchers keep that you can get right away, should take less then a hour to get if you want to stick with them.

    Longswords have variety and there are a lot of good ones, katana has one really good one for soa.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Flail is also an interesting choice. Flail of ages just rocks in ToB and dual wielding with Defender of Easthaven basically gives you shield bonus, damage resistance and off-hand attack... My current Minsc is wielding that combo FoA still at +3 though.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
  • jukagajukaga Member Posts: 49
    Some interesting points raised here, gentlemen. I thank all for their input. I think I may go Katana/Flail. I had forgotten the flail of ages' awesomeness. Tempting to go QS, but I'll reserve that staff for Aerie. Might switch back to Scimitar from Katanas once I hit ToB.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,042
    Kithrixx said:


    Katanas aren't "strictly better blades", are you kidding?

    Well, I should have added the disclaimer "depending upon the circumstances and how it is being used", of course. The *last* thing I want to do is start a "katava versus longsword" battle in a forum. Have you ever seen one of those? *yeesh* 18 pages of weapons experts of varying degrees of expertise (ranging from "none" to "an actual weapons master with 20 years of experience") discussing the minutae of metallurgy and grip technique. No, let's not.

    In the context of an RPG world which contains magic, though, there should be just as many enchanted katanas as other blades. That's all.

    Now...as far as katanas being rare and valuable...I once heard a rumor that you could buy a seemingly-well-made katana from a pawn shop in El Paso for only $250. Sounds like a great deal.

  • menelausmenelaus Member Posts: 5
    why no-one here mentioned Equalizer while saying all other much more harder to get items (9 lv spells, TOB)
    mayby I am pretty one dimentional (c) but I use blade of roses/daystar until chapter 5, then it become Equalzier + Crom fayer (25 str ftw) + improved haste from ring or mage under berserk. Also i use Celestial Fury on thief (hexxat) for nice backstabs. Otherwise its hit-stun proc is too overpowered.

    And actual fun start when u create 6 chars in multiplayer with 5 fighter and a thief dc mage to spam haste. Thats where u really enjoy all that nice weapon selection of lategame.
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited November 2013
    Quarterstaff. SoTM is an excellent weapon, if you aren't meleeing with it, you are doing it wrong.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    No one has mentioned that Elves get a bonus with Longswords. I don't think they get that with Katanas but not sure.

    Another point is that if you want the goodness of Celestial Fury while Charname weilds Sword of Rose and FoA, then you can always recruit Valgyar. I have also seen somewhere that there is an exploit that does not require EEKeeper that allows keeping Yoshimo in the party if that is not too much of an RP stretch.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    edited November 2014
    everyone is talking about the flail of ages +3, or not?
    because i really don't know, why everyone likes the +5 version so much...
    you can't haste yourself anymore, and therefore can't get 10 apr with improved haste...
    you could use whirlwind, but then you could also just use a twohanded weapon, wich would do about the same damage...
    can somebody please explain, why they prefer the FoA+5 so much?
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    mahe4 said:

    everyone is talking about the flail of ages +3, or not?
    you can't haste yourself anymore, and therefore can't get 10 apr with improved haste...

    people are used to modding this out i think. look at how free action makes perfect sense in IWD:EE!

  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 436
    A Kensai>Mage is eventually going to be doing more casting than slashing, unless you actively choose to play melee-tank. Trust me this is the slower less effective way.

    As for dualling, I would dual at level 9, others swear by 13, but this is an entire thread on it's own, so I'm going to assume you know what you're doing and drop it.

    Celestial fury always struck me as a backstabbing weapon, the stun effect is perfect for someone who doesn't plan to go toe-to-toe with some hulking monster, unless the monster is comatose on the floor. Valygar/Stalkers are a cheap alternative to a proper thief, he can sneak, backstabs for x2 damage, and can then melee whoever's left better than a thief would be able to.

    I loved Celestial fury back in the day, but SCS really makes it worthless, so haven't used it (CF) for at least 5 years. Even the Tactics mod allowed you the cheese of exploding a mage to start the fight, with suitable sound effects to boot, but SCS said nope, sorry, this mage is really bored, has a full spell book, and likes to put up massive defences and then drop an ADHW whenever a leaf blows louder than normally. Which is actually more fair, and probably the right thing to do, but fun .. eh.

    As for long swords, the blade of Roses is OK, the Equaliser is better, and Blackrazor is fantastic, with a fallback on Angurvadal for good players, but there are probably better weapon specialisations.

    Axes seem promising. There are two +3 throwing axes, one good-aligned and one if you side with Bhodi, and otherwise Stonefire & frostreaver have to last you all the way until you get Unyielding.

    Actually, this all depends who else is in your group. Korgan wants those axes, (except for Azureedge) and you don't argue with Korgan. Everyone but Keldorn want flails (OK also not Imoen, Jan, Nalia, or Edwin), and there's stiff competition for a couple of maces too.

    I would go halberds. They have long range, which is nice while you work towards level 11 without any armor, you can buy a pretty good one upstairs at the Adventurer's mart, or loot one in the unseeing eye or shadow temple quests. In the underdark you get Dragon's Breath, and this should be good enough for the rest of the game, but if it's not, you can switch to the Ravager.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    edited November 2014
    mahe4 said:

    everyone is talking about the flail of ages +3, or not?
    because i really don't know, why everyone likes the +5 version so much...
    you can't haste yourself anymore, and therefore can't get 10 apr with improved haste...
    you could use whirlwind, but then you could also just use a twohanded weapon, wich would do about the same damage...
    can somebody please explain, why they prefer the FoA+5 so much?

    If you're playing a two-weapon Kensai, I'd say Critical Strike + Kai are more bang for your buck than Improved Haste/Greater Whirlwind anyway. Not to mention Greater Whirlwind with Single Weapon Fighting or any two-weapon fighting set up with an off-hand will still get you your 10 APR regardless (Pretty sure the off-hand only gets a max of one APR anyway, where the rest go to the main hand). As for the Kensai/Mage being unable to get this, well it's toggle-able, even with mods getting rid of the Free Action's haste ban, you can switch the weapon out to the other on your quick-slot at any time, and the free action goes away with it.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60

    mahe4 said:

    everyone is talking about the flail of ages +3, or not?
    because i really don't know, why everyone likes the +5 version so much...
    you can't haste yourself anymore, and therefore can't get 10 apr with improved haste...
    you could use whirlwind, but then you could also just use a twohanded weapon, wich would do about the same damage...
    can somebody please explain, why they prefer the FoA+5 so much?

    If you're playing a two-weapon Kensai, I'd say Critical Strike + Kai are more bang for your buck than Improved Haste/Greater Whirlwind anyway. Not to mention Greater Whirlwind with Single Weapon Fighting or any two-weapon fighting set up with an off-hand will still get you your 10 APR regardless (Pretty sure the off-hand only gets a max of one APR anyway, where the rest go to the main hand). As for the Kensai/Mage being unable to get this, well it's toggle-able, even with mods getting rid of the Free Action's haste ban, you can switch the weapon out to the other on your quick-slot at any time, and the free action goes away with it.
    free action cancels haste now, as far as know, so you can't have both.
    and you can also have kai+critical strike+10apr through improved haste...
    which is better then kai+critical strike
    well... maybe all three is a bit overkill, i never tried...
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