Thieves quality of life improvements
Tris
Member Posts: 8
Before I start this I'll just state that my goal of this thread isn't to change the game core or the rules, just dust off the old code to make it feel more responsive. Please keep this in mind if you intend to comment or add your own suggestion.
First things first : why the thieves ? Because of all the classes it is the only one that requires constant micro management, plus the use of some of the ingame scripts to get something out of it, that is if you use the class for something more than detecting traps (and even then I tend to activate a script for that).
I'll just go by skill :
Hide in the shadows :
- first and foremost, please, make it so that you leave the shadows only when you actually try to do something. Just checking how many traps you have left, or your remaining spells for dual/multiclasses shouldn't force you out of stealth.
- Second, but it might be harder to implement : the hide in shadows switch should work on an on/off mode, rather than a single activation button (your character constantly tries to hide in the shadows without the need to manually reactivate it every single time you get revealed). This reduces the need to rely on of the thieves scripts, that are not that easy to find and can be tricky to use.
Detect traps :
I have two alternatives here
1) Have a passive trap detection, that notifies of a nearby trap (dice roll here) without revealing them. The switch would then be used to reveal nearby traps (dice roll here as well)
2) Make the switch work on an on/off mode too, so you don't have to re-activate it every single time you do something, or rely once again on scripts.
Detect illusions :
Same mechanics as the trap detection, relying on the adequate skill for the dice rolls.
Set traps :
- First : add to the thief description ingame the actual damage and effects of traps depending on the level (same as the bounty hunter special traps or the monk skills)
- as I stated on another thread : remove all the traps you have set on the map when you rest to prevent the trap abuse.
- Add a 1 to 3 seconds delay between the trap activation and its actual damage output, or make the traps activation range smaller than their area of effect : this will make traps more responsive when used in a normal fashion (namely setup the ambush, then lure the oponents in, as opposed to the cheesy tactics implying neutral dragons, traps and resting...)
Lockpicking, disarm traps and pickpocket are fine as they are, no modification is needed.
First things first : why the thieves ? Because of all the classes it is the only one that requires constant micro management, plus the use of some of the ingame scripts to get something out of it, that is if you use the class for something more than detecting traps (and even then I tend to activate a script for that).
I'll just go by skill :
Hide in the shadows :
- first and foremost, please, make it so that you leave the shadows only when you actually try to do something. Just checking how many traps you have left, or your remaining spells for dual/multiclasses shouldn't force you out of stealth.
- Second, but it might be harder to implement : the hide in shadows switch should work on an on/off mode, rather than a single activation button (your character constantly tries to hide in the shadows without the need to manually reactivate it every single time you get revealed). This reduces the need to rely on of the thieves scripts, that are not that easy to find and can be tricky to use.
Detect traps :
I have two alternatives here
1) Have a passive trap detection, that notifies of a nearby trap (dice roll here) without revealing them. The switch would then be used to reveal nearby traps (dice roll here as well)
2) Make the switch work on an on/off mode too, so you don't have to re-activate it every single time you do something, or rely once again on scripts.
Detect illusions :
Same mechanics as the trap detection, relying on the adequate skill for the dice rolls.
Set traps :
- First : add to the thief description ingame the actual damage and effects of traps depending on the level (same as the bounty hunter special traps or the monk skills)
- as I stated on another thread : remove all the traps you have set on the map when you rest to prevent the trap abuse.
- Add a 1 to 3 seconds delay between the trap activation and its actual damage output, or make the traps activation range smaller than their area of effect : this will make traps more responsive when used in a normal fashion (namely setup the ambush, then lure the oponents in, as opposed to the cheesy tactics implying neutral dragons, traps and resting...)
Lockpicking, disarm traps and pickpocket are fine as they are, no modification is needed.
26
Comments
IMO
As BG a virtual representation of D&D 2nd edition, every action in the game has a corresponding dice roll behind the scenes. The developers made design decisions based on how much control to give the player over these virtual dice rolls. Actions like detecting traps is controlled by the player, so if one isn't paying attention, or performing another action, one may step on a trap. It makes things unpredictible...in other words, fun. If all actions were scripted, all micromanagement taken out of the game, what would be left? Not much. Thieves in particular have several distinct functions, such as set trap, shadows, detect illusions, detect traps, open lock, pickpocket, and backstab- none of which is related to another. BG is after all, at the core, a turn by turn game, simulating real-time - and this is an important distinction. This delicate balance is the formula for success of the infinity engine games and their implementation of 2nd edition D&D rule set. Tweaking thieves, so that they may Have a 'switch' so that they constantly hide in shadows, or constantly detect traps, would not o ly remove a core component of playability, but also imbalance the game, as trap infested areas would present little challenge, nor surprises.
Of course, it is still possible to design character scripts, turn the ai on, and the game almost plays itself, the player need only point the way. However, I doubt most people want to play BG this way.
I'll agree about the trap cheese tactics, that could use some tweaking.
In this case an overhaul like this might like Tris wrote specifically serve those who like playing thieves and not just have them as trap-disarming bots.
And having to push F4 every time you select the thief isn't exactly a core component of playability in my opinion; it gets about as tedious as constantly have to rearrange stuff in the inventory. This can as stated be done by scripts as it is now, but it's not working optimally as you have to swap script functions as soon as you want the thief to do something else.
As it is just right clicking on something will stop your skills, which makes me feel as if the game interface is a hindrance rather than a help. Of course with experience you can work around this quite fine, but many just get discouraged and just end up using their thieves as mere detectors, with the ocasional trap exploit.
I guess it is not that hard to implement - it could simply work as Neverwinter Night's druid/ranger tracking skill (in a smaller scale, of course: scoping only adjacent rooms, not the whole map at once). You click, and if you get a successful check, your map is pinpointed (showing just what you could detect: like some colored dots in the dark - you have an idea of your enemy’s whereabouts, not exactly how the room is set).
I'm saying this because I've always played the traditional D&D game - and its PC versions - as thief (or rogue) characters, and I can't count how many times my party would have me checking if I could hear something coming out from the next room - so that we could plan something.
Anyways, I can get why climb walls skill is hard to develop - even though, it would be something amazing; especially in an isometric game -, but detect noise doesn't seem to be an Everest and it could be used in a similar and powerful manner as a tracking skill for druids/rangers (while they are at wild areas).
Thieves are all about skills: the more, the better. =P
So some people abuse the rest to set more traps than the games expects them to. How is this your problem? If you think it's wrong, don't do it. Don't try to take away a possibility to use a mechanic to role-play an intelligent/experienced adventurer just because you don't approve of how this mechanic is used by some players.
the same goes for bard song.
edit- created a new discussion considering bards and clerics here- http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2582/priests-and-bard-quality-of-life-improvement#latest
As little wisdom as Frirkraag has, he wouldn't be so stupid to not notice that you're up to something ;p.