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Dorn is the best Fighter NPC in game

2

Comments

  • What difference does it make who is 'best'? You can easily finish the game with the most gimped party possible. I can't think of a single fight where I've though 'dang, if this guy could only do x+10 damage per round instead of just x, I'd be able to beat it'. All of the NPCs have their own flavor and style, just use whoever you enjoy.

    Pokota
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Well said. Ofc korgan is the best cuz of his personality though.

    This is objective truth....and cannot be disagreed with

    ankhegUnderstandMouseMagic
  • AlkaluropsAlkalurops Member Posts: 268
    I think the only logical conclusion we can draw from this thread is that there are no bad NPC's, only bad players.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199

    I think the only logical conclusion we can draw from this thread is that there are no bad NPC's, only bad players.

    Apart from Cernd. XP




    And Clara. XD

    booinyoureyesAcridSyphilis
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 5,441
    edited November 2013
    Boo is more useful than Garrick, and he takes up a quickslot and does nothing but squeak and eat crackers

    nano
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Now I'm picturing Minsc carrying Garrick around in his quickslot and feeding him crackers

    booinyoureyesDragonspear
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 5,441
    nano said:

    Now I'm picturing Minsc carrying Garrick around in his quickslot and feeding him crackers

    Yes but can he squeak?

    Dragonspear
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Maybe if you pinch him in the right way...

    booinyoureyesAcridSyphilisDragonspear
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    Best fighter in the game: Sarevok, period. Why? Not only the highest status in the game, but Deathbringer assault give a % of +100-200 dmg on hit, and THIS IS THE MOST FUCKING AWESOME ABILITY OF THE GAME. Gorion know it pretty well for example.

    2° best? Korgan, no argue about that. why? enrage is the first reason, immunity to about everything that disable in the game including imprisonment.
    HP is the second reason, atm my lvl 18 korgan has 171 max hitpoints (+15 from enrage). At the same level (raised with CLUAConsole) Dorn has 104 max hitpoints.
    Fighters level up faster than paladins (in this case a blackguard). Korgan with 2.600.000 is at level 18 while dorn needed 3.000.000 to get the same level.

    Dorn is maybe the 3° best fighter in the game, for the general opinion. For me he's so good as keldorn, nothing more and nothing less.

    In fact i really disliked Dorn in Baldur's Gate 2. His high charisma is useless as his wisdom. Constitution 14 for a fighter class is really an waste and dexterity 16 is average.

    In Baldur's Gate, strengh 19 was total overpower, in Baldur's Gate 2, there are so much items that raise strengh that in later game viconia ends with more strengh than Dorn.

    If you make dorn free from patrons in his quest line he become the worst fighter of the game.

    So to me:

    1° - Sarevok
    2° - Korgan
    3° - Keldorn
    4° - Dorn blackguard
    5° - Minsc
    6° - Vaylgar
    7° - Dorn Fallen Blackguard
    8° - Haer'Dalis (if peope know how to fight with an bard he can go for 6° place in fact)


    I'm not evaluating Rasaad here cos i didn't made any play with him in baldur's gate 2, but in high levels he will probally hold 3° position (maybe even 2°, don't know).

    Frond
  • WebDrakeWebDrake Member Posts: 35
    nano said:

    Dorn and Sarevok, sure, but Minsc? Are we talking about the guy you can't control when he berserks, a ranger who puts points in two-handed sword proficiencies? No grand mastery or other special abilities? A glorious 8 int?

    Minsc is cool because of his Ranger dual-wield ability -- sure, he can't get grand mastery, but he can be a fantastic all-rounder with all sorts of weapons. Take his existing two-handed sword proficiency, add mace and flail, and you have someone who is really adaptable to different enemies and fighting situations.

    The 8 INT is annoying when facing mind flayers, though. :-(

    Dragonspear
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 5,441
    nano said:

    Maybe if you pinch him in the right way...

    I tried it. He just kept saying "YES... sir"

    nano
  • DaveTheBraveDaveTheBrave Member Posts: 20
    kamuizin said:


    1° - Sarevok
    2° - Korgan
    3° - Keldorn
    4° - Dorn blackguard
    5° - Minsc
    6° - Vaylgar
    7° - Dorn Fallen Blackguard
    8° - Haer'Dalis (if peope know how to fight with an bard he can go for 6° place in fact)

    I would put jaheira in 3° position, after Korgan and before Keldorn. Weapons-aware, she is more versatile than all NPC fighters/paladins; plus, she has 17 in both con and dex (with a 15 in str, average), making her a very solid frontliner. The only her con is that aren't very powerful weapons for her (except for Staff of the Ram +6). Oh, and he can Ironskin herself.

    tbone1
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 482
    edited December 4

    Boo is more useful than Garrick, and he takes up a quickslot and does nothing but squeak and eat crackers

    I will gladly fight you over this opinion. Garrick can use wands of Paralyzation like nobody's business, leaving the actual magic users to do their thing. And he's not tied to another NPC. Plus he's better as a pack mule than most other utility NPCs, being able to carry 150...

    (what's that? There are other wands? Why the hell would I need those? A held enemy is just a dead one who's still breathing...)

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    Garrick is the best npc in BG1. Bards are just that good.

    Arctodus
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,798
    What makes a good fighter? And at what part of the game?

    Anomen: makes a great fighter due to Draw Upon Holy Might. And frankly, considering level 2 priest spells, particularly in BG2EE. He can pretty much completely load up on those. While it may be "cheesy", he can still get GM in any weapon, as long as you focus on it.

    Jaheria: gives you iron skins, and the ability to DW Belm + due to druids getting scimitars. With Iron Skins, you don't lose much by not giving her gauntlets of dex.

    Keldorn: Arguably the weakest melee combatant Stat wise of any melee user. But str belts are cheap in BG2EE, and he also needs gauntlets of dex. (see: point of issue with MOST melee). But he also gives you insane amounts of true sight and dispels per rest. Plus, already setup to use a very early +5 weapon, which most of this list can't get.

    Mazzy: Insane self buffs, with Haste and Strength. Decent out of the gate archer, but will be fighting Imoen or Nalia for your best Shortbow. Can also turn into a happy little blender with 2 good short swords and shorty saves.

    Minsc: DW blunt weapons or axes (cause god knows we have enough proficiency). A good 2h sword just in case. Biggest issue is his rage, but that can be solved by CCing your enemies, and then giving some ground. Plus, he has Boo.

    Korgan: Starts with good points in axes (GM if I'm not mistaken when you pick him up). You can continue levelling up warhammer for Crom Faeyr eventually. Or you can work on Flails, as you likely won't be that far behind proficiency wise. You can get the Stone Axe (+3 w fire damage) and the Frost Reaver (+3 with cold and acid) early. Also, axe of the unyielding is underrated, particularly with Whirlwind in ToB. Oh, and he has fun rage.

    Valygar: The most micro-intensive of the group, and also the one who's starting weapon proficiencies are hardest to plan around. Still, backstabbing with Celestial fury is nice. Like Minsc and other non-fighters. He has plenty of points to go around.

    Haer'dalis: I've never used him, but I've heard nothing but good things about him. Not to mention, he might be the hardest person on the list to actually kill. But that's due to how well the arcane spells actually protect you.

    I'd argue that Dorn's biggest issue (Con) is harder to overcome than the obstacles that most on this list need to do. While his fear and drain are both nice, and can help him stay alive, all of these fighters can be the best if you approach the fight using their strengths.

    If anything: Keldorn (Carsomyr, Instant Dispel, True Sight), Anomen (Blade Barrier, I think also true sight, Dispel, divine buffs), Jaheria and Haer'dalis are all better overall combatants. Because most of your hard fights for melee, are also going to have magical protections that you will need to strip before you can damage someone.

    Honorable Mention: Rasaad, by the time you reach late SoA/Early ToB, starts coming into his own as well. Eventually, his fists become +4 and +5, and IIRC, can get up to 6 APR with them before WW. Also, they eventually get up to 1d20 + 5 I think. Now while his strength will still require a belt, and he still has sub par (16) dex. His lack of con is made up for the late game defensive buffs that Monks get. Once he hits 42, he starts gaining more and more MR.

    But again, this is playing to the strengths of who you brought along.

    ThacoBell
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 1,843
    Okay, no. The best NPC in melee in the game is Jan Jansen.

    1: THAC0 is irrelevant. He has timestop, a dozen save or stuns, and a few no-save, just stuns.
    2: Bonus damage is irrelevant. He has Mislead, iHaste, Belm, and Firetooth for an effective 40 hits per turn, and yes, he lands those hits: See 1.
    3: HP and AC are irrelevant, he has PfMW, Mirror Images, and Stoneskins. For funsies he also has Fireshields, so he's dealing free, MR ignoring, damage. Go ahead and whirlwind him, you take 40D8+80 damage, no save, he takes a turnip break as he watches you die.
    4: Enemy mages? Breach, Detect Illusion, and a backstab solve the problem four rounds earlier than any fighter. Spell protections? Eat Staff of the Magi, and see #1 again.
    5: You want immunities? He has them. All of them. Any item based immunity, he gets to use it. Any spell? He's immune to it. Nobody tanks better than Jansen.

    Jan Jansen, a small, turnip obsessed, gnome with 9 strength, is the best in melee from around level 9 and just keeps on getting better.


    And for the record, no, Bards are not the best in Baldur's Gate 1. They get no Robe, they get few spells, no helmets, their THAC0 progression is the second worst in the game, and their "thief skills" are an insult.

    The best NPC in BG1 is Quayle, who gets more mage spells, more cleric spells, the same THAC0, better saves in everything but polymorph (before including short bonuses), helmets, better armour (robe of the archmagi), better shields, and the ability to turn into an 18/50 Strength murder spider with 4 APR and a magic hammer, while also being a better thief thanks to sanctuary and find traps.

    Need a packmule? Go get Dorn.
    Need a badass? Find a gnome.

    Blackraventbone1InKal
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    *Coughlearntoplaybardscough*

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 1,843
    ThacoBell said:

    *Coughlearntoplaybardscough*

    By all means back your passive aggression up with something meaningful if you like, but a +1 Luck Bonus so long as you sit around doing nothing, a Caster Level bonus and 10 average HP are poor compensation for being a mediocre class and one of the worst races in the game.

  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 727
    edited December 5
    @Pantalion As I now have a kitless bard deep into SoA in a no-reload run (just before getting the Rhynn Lantorn), I guess I can tell my opinion on bards in general.

    Kitless bards are definitively useful. Their song gives a wooping +3 to luck at higher levels, which means +3 to minimum damage, +3 to saves and +3 to damage reduction roll from spell damage (a 10d6 fireball will deal 7d6 damage with the song). Not too shabby. And they don't have to do nothing : it requires micro, but you can cast spells AND keep the song bonuses at all time.

    Add in their specific items : I have various instruments that let me cast Confusion 3 times/day, Dispel Hold 3 times/day, Silence once a day and AoE stun for two rounds once a day. Not too shabby again.

    Well buffed bards can be quite deadly : they're better candidate for Tenser's Transformation than mages, for instance : their base hp is better and they can use more weapons. Their spells are also usually nastier than when casted by a mage : in late SoA, my bard is routinely 4 level higher than a mage. Not too shabby again.

    Having said that, I somewhat agree with you : while underappreciated, bards are not the best powergaming choice. Not a lot of spells, poor saving throws, poor racial choices, ... But that's also due to the fact that multiclass combo were poorly implemented in the BG saga. In AD&D, multis are supposed to have a cap level, which means that a fighter/mage is not suppose to be able to cast level 9 spells with a base thac0 of 0. Same for a gnomish thief/mage. That's one of the reason why bards are so underappreciated in my opinion, because the power creep of the multis are effectively broken in the BG saga. And, since the strength of bards is to be able to do a lot of things at the same time, but with actual drawbacks, multis will always overshadow them.

    Edit : typo.

    Post edited by Arctodus on
    Blackraventbone1
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    Well, Bards cast at a higher level than mages, so their spells are ALWAYS more powerful when it comes to scaling spells. They can use any weapon type in the game. Their pickpocket gets you a LOT of free items reliably. As noted above, they can cast AND sing with a little micro, that's a huge boost. And at epic levels they can quite literally use any item in the game. Their bonuses individually don't look like much, but they are a big picture class. They are a swiss army knife that can handle literally any situation in the game. The sheer multitude of ways that they can tackle any situation in the game without relying purely on memorized spells, puts them head and shoulder above every single class in the game.

    Dragonspear
  • malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 149
    Korgan is clearly the best as Berzerker is clearly the most OP class to begin with, but I'd rather take Keldorn if I had to choose since he is just more useful. Most Korgan and Keldorn are better than Dorn. As for Saverok, well...

    For BG1 it's a hard choice between Minsc and Shar-Teel dualed to Fighter, but I'd say Minsc. In BG1 Minsc is the best dual wielder except Shar-Teel. He can get 2 pips into Maces and 3 pips into two weapon style. If I remember Shar-Teel can get 3 pips into Longswords and 2 into two weapon style, but she has lower HP, and no rage, but she can backstab.

    Shar-Teels ends up being a bit of a glass cannon, but still those Backstabs are brutal.

    Both are better than Dorn IMO, though Dorn with Composite Longbow +1 is pretty good.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 1,843
    Arctodus said:

    @Pantalion As I now have a kitless bard deep into SoA in a no-reload run (just before getting the Rhynn Lantorn), I guess I can tell my opinion on bards in general.

    Kitless bards are definitively useful. Their song gives a wooping +3 to luck at higher levels, which means +3 to minimum damage, +3 to saves and +3 to damage reduction roll from spell damage (a 10d6 fireball will deal 7d6 damage with the song). Not too shabby. And they don't have to do nothing : it requires micro, but you can cast spells AND keep the song bonuses at all time.

    1: Bardic luck doesn't give +3 to saves, sorry. I thought it did too, but apparently only the luck spell and the gear that emulates it actually gives saves.

    2: If I recall my recent thread on it though (it's Luck and Bards somewhere in general if you're interested, I found my education on the topic quite interesting), it's actually better than dropping damage to 7d6 though, it's -3 to maximum damage per die - so an incoming Fireball is actually worse than 10d3 on a failed save, because it's a six sided die -3 from the result: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3 - or a 2/3 chance of a 1 for each die rolled.
    Arctodus said:

    Having said that, I somewhat agree with you : while underappreciated, bards are not the best powergaming choice. Not a lot of spells, poor saving throws, poor racial choices, ... But that's also due to the fact that multiclass combo were poorly implemented in the BG saga. In AD&D, multis are supposed to have a cap level, which means that a fighter/mage is not suppose to be able to cast level 9 spells with a base thac0 of 0. Same for a gnomish thief/mage. That's one of the reason why bards are so underappreciated in my opinion, because the power creep of the multis are effectively broken in the BG saga. And, since the strength of bards is to be able to do a lot of things at the same time, but with actual drawbacks, multis will always overshadow them.

    Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. Bards are far from the worst class, but they're also far from the best class as well. Overall, they're mediocre; around the middle, after every multiclass mage, Sorcerer, and Mage pure class.

    Now, Bards are actually my favourite class in NWN2, where they get awesome enduring auras, songs, a versatile spell list and cool perks that made being a bard a great choice for you as a party leader. This didn't happen in Baldur's Gate.

    Anyways, if I recall my racial level limits, an Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief in line with PnP rules with high stats would be 13/19/15 or so, which is arguably an upgrade over 18/17/25, and compared to a bard:

    2 better THAC0, 2 APR and specialisation (+1/2 APR, +1 THAC0 +2 Damage, 4 fewer proficiency pips), level 9 spells (at -1 CL), helmets, shields, actual thief skills, and better saves (8/4/7/11/5 infinite level bard vs 5/5/6/5/6 F/M/T).
    ThacoBell said:

    Well, Bards cast at a higher level than mages, so their spells are ALWAYS more powerful when it comes to scaling spells. They can use any weapon type in the game. Their pickpocket gets you a LOT of free items reliably. As noted above, they can cast AND sing with a little micro, that's a huge boost. And at epic levels they can quite literally use any item in the game. Their bonuses individually don't look like much, but they are a big picture class. They are a swiss army knife that can handle literally any situation in the game. The sheer multitude of ways that they can tackle any situation in the game without relying purely on memorized spells, puts them head and shoulder above every single class in the game.

    1: CL caps at 20, frequently before, and the best spells frequently don't depend on scaling much. I agree bards are good blasters, but not that blaster is the best spellcaster strategy (and a specialist's -2 to saves can ultimately lead to more damage on average than a bard despite the higher CL).

    2: Cast and sing isn't bad, true, though you're still sacrificing a full character's damage output for +1 to other characters in BG1, which is where you were suggesting Garrick was the best NPC (I'm happy to go into Haer'dalis for BG2 from a mathematical standpoint if you like, but then we'd be comparing him to Aerie and Jansen and he has to wait until HLAs before he can pull off a decent fire shields and PfMW while singing combo).

    3: The Pickpocket progression on even a kitless bard is 5 per level and caps out low. If we really care about "pickpocket" then Imoen dualled at 6 can have a higher pick pocket score than a capped bard.

    4: Weapon type is a perk, but not an optimisation requirement. The best weapons for non-fighters are generally daggers and scimitars, crossbows and short bows for the APR benefits, and thieves get 'em all.

    5: The problem with bards from an optimisation perspective is that they do indeed have a swiss army knife that they can use, and then they have spells, which are a howitzer. Sure, you can solve the problem without using your howitzer if you like, but *more* options doesn't always mean *better* options.

    6: Jesters are way more fun than Blades. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    2. Not really, the bonuses from bard song alone makes every other party members' output equal to about 1.5x what they would normally be doing, which more than makes up for the singing bard, and being to manage spells or an attack while singing, means the bard is still managing output every round as well. Oh and that bard song luck? Yeah it improves past +1. The song scales with levels.
    3. I find myself reliably stealing from stores in BG1 before the level cap. Bards pickpocket is MORE than enough to filch whatever you may need.
    4. Being able to pick from ANY secondary effect, ability, or damage bonus is HUGE. Bards can tank/hurt anything with the correct weapon passives alone. If that's still not enough, there is a little spell called Tenser's.
    5. there is no problem. Bards can meld their different abilities around whatever they need need. They don't need to be the best at just one thing. They can do EVERYTHING.
    6. Personal opinion.

  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 727
    Pantalion said:


    1: Bardic luck doesn't give +3 to saves, sorry. I thought it did too, but apparently only the luck spell and the gear that emulates it actually gives saves.

    It's actually nice to know. Since I play in an heavily modded game, I just thought that bards song would grant the corresponding bonus from the spell. Even if my experience differ somewhat from the unmodded game, the bulk of what I said stand. Nice to know about damage reduction too. Thanks !!

    And, yeah, I pretty much share your opinion about bards. Worst than any arcane multis, mages and sorcerers, but otherwise they're pretty good. It just annoys me when people outright say that they completely suck, when they clearly don't.

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 217
    Just like to point out that spells are capped at caster level 20, so the Bardic level advantage is gone once a Mage reaches level 20. Other than that i would say the argument is irrelevant as to what is best, everything can be effective given the right equipment and tactical play.

  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 727
    Borek said:

    Just like to point out that spells are capped at caster level 20, so the Bardic level advantage is gone once a Mage reaches level 20. Other than that i would say the argument is irrelevant as to what is best, everything can be effective given the right equipment and tactical play.

    It's actually not quite true, because, if I'm not wrong, Dispel and Remove Magic still scale past level 20. So, a bard is harder to debuff and is also a better debuffer than regular mages.

    ThacoBell
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 217
    Arctodus said:

    Borek said:

    Just like to point out that spells are capped at caster level 20, so the Bardic level advantage is gone once a Mage reaches level 20. Other than that i would say the argument is irrelevant as to what is best, everything can be effective given the right equipment and tactical play.

    It's actually not quite true, because, if I'm not wrong, Dispel and Remove Magic still scale past level 20. So, a bard is harder to debuff and is also a better debuffer than regular mages.
    Well yes, but dispel/remove magic are not particularly relevant when you factor in all the things a Mage/bard can do with their spells. My point is you don't get anymore damage or duration past caster level 20, this limits the bard's casting advantage to early/mid game.

  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 446
    top two would be Sarevok/Korgan for tanks but Dorn is up there after with the rest (Keldorn, Minsc etc) so tough to call...anyone mention Wilson?

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 1,843
    2: +1 minimum roll and +1 minimum damage is very unlikely to be a 50% damage increase. That would require a target which needed at least a 17 to hit. And yes, it improves at level 15, but this long after Garrick is gone. Remember that your position is that Garrick is the best NPC, not that bards are the best class (which is also objectively false, but irrelevant to the topic).

    3: This does not alter what I said, which was that if pick pocket is a metric for value, even Imoen can get more, sooner, and still pick up Cloudkill by TotSC cap.

    4: Again, if we're into HLAs, we're not talking about Garrick, we're talking about Jan Jansen and high level mage shenanigans. Don't do this, it's not a fair comparison and bards can't win it.

    5: Except get a consistently decent APR, specialise for another 1/2 APR, backstab, detect illusions, pick locks, disarm traps, hide with non-detection with no resources expended, or cast level 7+ spells. Again, more options is not the same as good options.

    6: Duh?
    Arctodus said:

    It just annoys me when people outright say that they completely suck, when they clearly don't.

    Honestly I can't help but feel I'm intentionally gimping myself if I play a Bard (of course I won't even play a pure fighter or thief at all, so make of that what you will) over an F/M/T. They should have got up to level 8 spells in ToB, because their entire function and role is to provide a single class alternative to F/M/T.
    Arctodus said:

    It's actually not quite true, because, if I'm not wrong, Dispel and Remove Magic still scale past level 20. So, a bard is harder to debuff and is also a better debuffer than regular mages.

    Correct, bards and clerics are the best at casting dispel in the game (Inquisitors cap at 20). Actually being dispelled is largely theoretical, since Spell Immunity ignores auras, casts instantly, blocks dispel and should be memorised anyway, but being able to use dispel magic rather than the targeted buffstrippers is a good quality of life feature.
    brunardo said:

    top two would be Sarevok/Korgan for tanks but Dorn is up there after with the rest (Keldorn, Minsc etc) so tough to call...anyone mention Wilson?

    Wilson is kind of like an even more limited kensai, he can put out the hurt, but folds hard and fast against legitimate threats since he gets no gear. His kit is fairly interesting when you keeper it onto a multiclass though.

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