maxed Ranged weapon damage analysis (dart , dagger, axe, hammer)
Cowled_wizard
Member Posts: 119
Comparing With grandmastery: +5 damage +1apr (no gaunlets) and best weapon available)
Dart (crimson) 1d3+3 (no str) 5 attacks per round = 5 (avg dmg)+5 (grandmastery)=10 x5 =50dpr (guantlets of extraordinary specialization are useless) (no str bonus)
Dagger (firetooth= 2d4+3 +1d2fire) 4 attacks per round= 8,5 (avg dmg) +5 (gm) = 13,5x4 = 44dpr (no gauntlets) (str bonus doesnt apply)
Axe (klogarath) 1d6+4 3 attacks per round = 7.5+5+ str bonus x 3
Str 18 : 12.5 + 2 = 14.5 x 3 = 43.5 dpr
Str 19 12.5+ 7= 19.5x3 = 58.5 dpr
(savevsdeath or 2d6dmg extra : always end up being nothing in endgame so im going to not considering it)
Dwarwen Hammer 2d4+3 3apr = 7.5+5 + str bonus x 3 (same as klogarath)
Slings also add str damage making them a better option than hammer and axe.
bullets do 1d4+4 + sling bonus damage
Crossbow also get double bonus from bolt and crowwbow
Bows get 2 apr base + double bonus
So, throwing weapons? It cant compare to real weapons like slings crossbows or bows.
Grandmastery on darts? For roleplaying purpose maybe but str bonuses rule in the end.
It makes me think of how bad the whole strength system is. 18 str to 19 str changes from +2 to + 8 dmg...
Dart (crimson) 1d3+3 (no str) 5 attacks per round = 5 (avg dmg)+5 (grandmastery)=10 x5 =50dpr (guantlets of extraordinary specialization are useless) (no str bonus)
Dagger (firetooth= 2d4+3 +1d2fire) 4 attacks per round= 8,5 (avg dmg) +5 (gm) = 13,5x4 = 44dpr (no gauntlets) (str bonus doesnt apply)
Axe (klogarath) 1d6+4 3 attacks per round = 7.5+5+ str bonus x 3
Str 18 : 12.5 + 2 = 14.5 x 3 = 43.5 dpr
Str 19 12.5+ 7= 19.5x3 = 58.5 dpr
(savevsdeath or 2d6dmg extra : always end up being nothing in endgame so im going to not considering it)
Dwarwen Hammer 2d4+3 3apr = 7.5+5 + str bonus x 3 (same as klogarath)
Slings also add str damage making them a better option than hammer and axe.
bullets do 1d4+4 + sling bonus damage
Crossbow also get double bonus from bolt and crowwbow
Bows get 2 apr base + double bonus
So, throwing weapons? It cant compare to real weapons like slings crossbows or bows.
Grandmastery on darts? For roleplaying purpose maybe but str bonuses rule in the end.
It makes me think of how bad the whole strength system is. 18 str to 19 str changes from +2 to + 8 dmg...
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Comments
And afaik strength bonus is meant to apply to all throwing weapons but darts. It'll likely be addressed in a patch if it isn't the case, or you can alter it manually with an editor.
As for the big gap between 18 and 19 strength it's because of how the space between 18 and 19 is divided into 100 "exceptional strength". So at 18/91 you get +5 damage and at 18/00 you get +6, which sort of bridges the gap to 19. Afaik it's meant to represent a significant difference in strength between strong humans while still differing against the strength of something lore-wise much stronger like an ogre or hill giant.
Generally I agree strength scales a little too much compared to other stats though. You might as well expect 25 dex to give you -14AC, or 25 int to give your opponent -14 to save against your spells.
Nano, the basic difference is you apply both weapon and bullet bonuses to dmg.
Slings:
Erine sling +5. Bullets 1d4+4 = 6.5 + 5 (sling) +5 (gm) = 16.5 + str bonus
18 str = (16.5 +2) x3 = 55.5 dpr
19 str = (16.5+ 7) x3 = 70.5 dpr
Sling on the other hand is the only chance for most casters, who don't usually don't plan on having much STR.
Throwing weapons come in handy, if you are for example a chavalier and can't use launchers (they can use throwing weapons even though I would say, that is also a missle). For example the Azuredge were a nice addition against the dead.
So, the bow is still my personal favourite, not for the base damage (even a composite bow has poor damage if you compare it with a sling), but for the option to use just the right ammo for the right target.
Trowing axes you have much str, is a good weapon to use.
Trowing dagger is only weapon not tested so do not know how much damage you get.
As always, APR is a considerable part of the equation. Anything with bonus APR has a huge advantage. That's why for Bows and Crossbow, you always want to default to Tuigan Bow or Army Scythe (picking others only for specific fights, e.g. requiring high enchantment level).
bolt=1d8 = 4.5 dmg
stone=1d4+5= 7.5 dmg
in BG1EE, all magical arrows get the + to damage and thaco, and the elemental arrows were much more powerful then they are in BG2EE.. While I can see the argument that arrows were overpowered with lower level characters in BG1EE, in BG2EE when monsters have 100s of HP, immunities to many different weapons, I feel that there should be a mod or something that reverts arrows back to their BG1EE glory (or something in the middle between overpowered and extremely underpowered)
Terrible?
Allow me to disabuse you.
Fighter -> Cleric, Grand Mastery in Slings.
2 Attacks from Fighter 13.
Strength 18/** +1 from mastery. Tome + Lum + Wrath = 22 Strength. 25 with any of the clerics myriad strength boosts.
+5 damage per missile from Grand Mastery.
+14 damage from Strength.
1D4+3 from infinite +2 bullets on a +0 storebought sling.
That's three attacks per round for 23-26 damage per bullet, 69-72 damage per round. Average of 70.5.
****
Archer, Grand Mastery in Short Bows.
3 Attacks from Ranger 13 + Bow.
+1 for Grand Mastery.
Strength: Who cares? Strength doesn't help bows.
+5 Damage per missile from Grand Mastery.
1D6 for infinite arrow quiver - since it's on a character out of the party, I can't see the damage amount without effort, but normal +2 arrows just get a THAC0 bonus, not a damage bonus, so fmeh.
Store bought bow, of course.
Call him level 34 for an insane boost to damage, +11 from being an Archer Kit.
That's four attacks per round at 16-21 damage, or 68-88 damage per round.
So yeah, slings are terrible, they only do an average of 70.5 damage per round over three attacks, rather than 78 over four attacks. And that's just a plain ol' Fighter -> Cleric dual class versus a capped Archer kit, the undisputed master of ranged warfare.
Slap on Improved Haste or Improved Weapon Whirlwind onto a Fighter and you're looking at 8-10 attacks per round.
8 attacks: 184-208 damage, 196 damage.
10 attacks: 230-260 damage, 245 damage in a single round.
A capped Archer GWWing gets 170-230 damage.
Yes, Slings are just that great, but if you think that Acid Arrows (3-10 damage), Gesen arrows (3-11 damage), or any other type of ammo is going to overcome the basic advantage of +8 damage per hit (Solely from 20 Strength, attainable in BG1 if you go Half Orc), you need to check your maths.
Base damage isn't everything.
I don't have much expirience on ranged weaponry, but weren't the Mastery APR modifications meant to be a melee bonus? Have to test that one out.
Edit: First test shows remarkable results.
Killed 2 golems with a piercing weapon (gesen shortbow), in 3 shots using extraordinary ammonition. The arrows of biting have a build in -30% HP if you fail the save, the arrows of detonation have the 6d6. Still need a target with more HP, but I do think that your base damage will not stand against these numbers (and yes 3,5 APR, you can get an item to add that)
Used plain old Ranger/archer Elf, ability points: 90, need to follow that up with a decent enemy, maybe tomorrow
The big difference however is the ammo, particularly crossbow bolts. Both Bolt of Biting and Bolt of Lighting are very effective, but the arrows (despite their inexplicable BG2 nerf) are also effective. The reason is mostly that they deal elemental damage, i.e. damage that pierces Stoneskin and bypasses physical damage resistances (of which there are quite a few, particularly vs. missiles).
While super high STR can indeed skew things towards slings, keep in mind that there are several factors in play in that equation that you do not seem to consider. First, APR differences double under Improved Haste; 6 APR vs. 10 APR is quite a difference. Second, buffing STR on a slinger is counter-productive for party performance, as you're better off giving the STR to someone who can make use of it with consistently high APR (i.e. melee). Third, you are completely discounting THAC0, which in the early game particularly can make quite a difference. Even in late game, an Archer with a bow/xbow will have a considerable THAC0 advantage.
It's not *impossible* to construct scenarios where slings are better, but they are usually fringe cases contingent on several other sub-optimal choices. Archers are a large part of this to be sure, as their bonuses replicate STR gains quite effectively, while not compromising party performance (due to STR increase on a low APR character). Sure you can end up in a situation where you don't want an archer, but that's your decision - and you make that knowing that you could achieve better performance otherwise. It's a totally legitimate choice, just be aware that you are actually making that choice.
If you approach "sling vs. bow/xbow" objectively, there is no way slings will ever win. Heck, once the throwing dagger STR bonus issue is fixed, even they will outperform slings, and Dwarven Thrower already does. So yeah, slings probably beat darts in the ranged weapon department, that's about it.
The other thing is, you don't have to go to extremes it's very easy to get 19-20 strength and with most Fighter types and specialisation, that's 2 1/2 attacks before Haste, which is still +20 damage or more just from the Strength bonus alone. They're very easy to optimise, they combine with a shield, and are just extremely solid weapons overall throughout the series, people just slap them on their Mage/Cleric and think they're bad because Mages and Clerics just aren't known for high strength, specialisation bonuses, multiple attacks or decent THAC0s.
Basically, what appears to have happened in the BG1 --> BG2 transition is that someone noticed bows were ridiculously powerful compared to their melee counterparts. They therefore decided to nerf bows by doing both of the following:
Removing the launcher damage bonus from most bows (e.g. a Long Bow +1 gives +1 damage, +1THAC0 in BG1 but only +1 THAC0 in BG2),
AND
Nerfing most of the magical ammunition used by bows: the "normal" enchanted ammunition lost its damage bonus, and the elemental ammunition was also nerfed - the Acid Arrow was hit particularly hard (Fire and Ice arrows went from 1d6 elemental bonus to 1d2 elemental bonus, Acid Arrows went from an Arrow +1 +2d6 acid to an Arrow +1 +1d3 acid). Note that Crossbows, even though they weren't so grossly overpowered relative to other options, still got a slight taste of the nerf bat, since their "normal" enchanted bolts were also stripped of their damage bonuses.
These changes combined made Bows in BG2 still a relatively powerful choice, especially in early game, but they began to become comparatively lackluster in late SoA and especially in ToB. They were also still the most powerful ranged option.
HOWEVER, BG2:EE has changed the balance of things significantly.
When Overhaul decided to grant slings and almost all throwing weapons a Strength damage bonus, they tilted the ranged weapon balance significantly away from bows and towards other ranged weapons, especially Slings (as seen above). In base BG2, slings were not a superior choice to bows in terms of raw damage because only the Sling of Seeking got a Strength bonus to damage. Extending that to all Slings has made them superior to bows late-game because Bows have basically no way to scale damage beyond 1d6. They don't get missile bonuses OR bonuses to damage from most launchers (and note that the Composite Bow series, which does give launcher damage bonuses up to +3, requires high Strength to use!), while Slings get damage bonuses from missiles, launchers, AND strength!
Basically, given the way Overhaul decided to change the other missile weapons, if they want to make Bows and Crossbows attractive choices again late-game, they need to restore the bonuses that Bioware removed from Bows and Crossbows when they made the transition from BG1 to BG2.
If they don't, we'll continue to have the current state of affairs: the Archer with Grandmastery in Bows, which should be the undisputed master of ranged weapons, is only barely better than (and in some cases worse than) a generic Fighter with Grandmastery in slings.
The STR mod applies on some throwing weapons, not on all. The firetooth +3 should have the STR on melee and on ranged.
As mentioned above in my edit, I have seen remarkable damage (5 min quick and dirty test range) even on piercing resistant enemies, using only 90 points, elf archer and GM on shortbows. I need to bring an archer to a truely heavy weight enemy to see the real performance, heck, I just might start an archer now. The arrows of biting are good enough, the arrows of detonation are nice for crowd shredding (much more rare and yes, BG2 only). Did I mention that there are also arrows of dispel? I wonder if you can use them on enemies who are resistant against missle weapons.
edit:
Ok this is weird. I get the STR bonus on Gesen Shortbow or heartseeker if I use the biting arrows. I know that the arrows of detonation are not really meant to be used, but the arrows of biting? They are in BG1 as well as in BG2. If that holds true with all bows, then your sling just lost your one advantage.
edit2:
confirmed, every bow will get the STR mod when the arrows of biting are equiped, even your measly short bow for 1 gold. Once you switch to different arrows, the STR mod disapears. The good old tuigan gets 9/2 attacks without haste or wirlwind, and that's on an lvl 9 archer. Even without these arrows, I think you will be hardpressed to get that much APR out of slings.
Lately i was comparing a crossbow with a sling. I wasnt comparing the army scythe though, the +1 surely changes things.
Bolts of biting are really something early soa, but in tob, where everybody-and-their-mother has saves of 1 or less, they are quite useless.
Bolts of lighting on the other hand offer a 2d4 dmg (when saved), which is basicly adding +4.5 dmg (electric resistance aside)
The fighter-cleric idea, seems also not bad. Specially sinces holy power can raise ur strength . If you can manage 25str my guess is sling wins...
All of it is in any case theoretical, unless you are playing tactics you dont need to buff yourself to death for every fight, making the whole 25str thing pointless to start with. And since Tuigan is at the beginning of soa , i think short bow is the best (cost effective) ranged weapon.
Comparing the dwarven thrower to slings:
2d4+3 +str x 3 = （7.5+str）x3
1d4+5+sling dmg + str = (7.5 + sling dmg + str)x3
Slings are better (when you get +4 bullets)
And of course now razadelrom found the (bugged) absolute champion: 25 str half ogre wielding tuigan with arrows of biting.
And yeah, i really want to see hexxat *spoilers 20str 20 dex with firetooth (str bonus applied with next patch)
2d4+3+8(str) x2 = 15.5x2=31 dpr not bad for a thief
(thaco bonus +3）
hey, does str bonus to thaco apply on ranged weapons that apply str to dmg? (meaning both dex and str stack to thaco bonuses) ?
Before I get into hardcore mathematics, a few quick points.
1: I'm not sure why you're saying "even they" about throwing daggers, those things will consistently outdamage pretty much everything when they're fixed, Throwing Daggers are flat out amazing.
2: Piercing protections is indeed useful, but isn't guaranteed, doesn't work against all creatures, subject to MR has its own, also common, resistances to worry about.
3: THAC0 in the late game is largely irrelevant, and in the early game where you have a high miss chance, whilst mathematically the advantages of more, lower damage shots versus fewer high damage shots tends to average out without a victor.
4: I shan't get into a discussion about how having an Archer is somehow not a compromise compared to having a Fighter -> Mage/Cleric dual class sling specialist, since they're both Charnames, and one is both a primary spellcaster and can Grand Mastery themselves into more than just bows. One would hope that a character gearing their entire class towards archery should do better than the guy who can do any of five things well.
If however, an Archer is *necessary* to compete with a sling user, that's rather telling itself.
5: Suggesting it's better to put a strength boosting item onto a melee character is fallacious. A Fighter with Grand Mastery in slings will hit more times per round than any NPC not Dual Wielding but Yoshimo (dualled), Mazzy, Koveras or Korgan, where it's a tie. It's certainly better than using them on Minsc or Keldorn, who can only specialise.
This said, you can still import a tome'd character to get to 21 Strength by the end of SoA without belts, 22 in Watcher's Keep, and 23 with the Deck of Many Things if you're a fighter type, so even if this were true, you're still getting +11 damage per hit without any items. Since Clerics do have a few spells that can buff other peoples' strength above 20, it's not out of the question to use that in a pinch either.
6: Since you can actually make +4 Sling Bullets and stockpile them with the "best" sling every time you rest, there's no need for you to change away from Erin's Sling, just save the bullets for those rare occasions.
Anyway! How about we keep it to just a plain level 21, Ctrl-8'd Human Fighter Charname with a mage on hand to cast whatever buffs you need?
With Lum's and Tomes that gives, in the important bits, 20 Strength and 20 Dexterity, 0 base THAC0, and enough mastery pips to GM whichever. Forget any gloves, since Extraordinary specialisation would unfairly benefit Slings anyway.
Improved Haste adds 5 attacks per round to the Tuigan Bow.
Using arrows, the only ones in BG2 not subject to failing on a save (which is generally the same as saying "doesn't work" at higher levels in my experience) are arrow of ice (2-8 damage), or Acid Arrows (3-10 damage).
That's 10 attacks, at 30-100 damage, plus 50 from Grand Mastery, plus 10 from the Tuigan bow itself. 80-160 damage, 125 damage average.
Improved Haste adds 4 attacks per round to the Drow Crossbow of Speed +3.
Assuming infinite bolts of Lightning that's probably going to be 1D8+2D4 lightning damage since there's a save for half, but let's call it 3D4 and assume it's a 50% chance of making the save.
I'll ignore the Bolt of Biting considering a lot of creatures are immune to poison and a lot more are going to save against that damage, but if you make the same 50% assumption, +7 poison damage is worse than 3D4, so scratch that anyway.
8 attacks gives: 32-120 damage, plus 40 from Grand Mastery, plus 30 from the Drow Crossbow.
102-190 damage. 146 damage average.
If you disagree with the above, feel free to show your maths.
Now the slings.
Improved Haste adds 3 attacks per round to the Sling of Everard.
Everard's infinite projectile is actually a +5 bullet, which I believe (feel free someone to tell me) means it can damage Demiliches and other nasties that need high + weapons to hurt them. Each bullet only deals 1D4+2 damage.
You can also stack the infinite +2 bullets on there for +3 damage over the sling's own infini-bullets but they don't count as +5 weapons, so forget it. And I'll skip stacking Sunfire bullets and their fire damage on there, because I don't recall there being more than a few out there.
6 attacks gives a paltry 18-36 damage, plus 30 from grand mastery, plus 48 from Strength.
96-114 damage. 105 damage average.
So there you have it, with free ammo, no strength boosting above base stats, and no optimisation whatsoever, the sling deals 20 average damage less per round than the bow, and 41 less average damage per round than the Underdark only crossbow. It does have a THAC0 2 better than the Crossbow and 4 better than the Tuigan.
But how often does it come up that your ranged weapon user can't hurt an enemy with, say, Improved Mantle?
Never, that's right. So to optimise slightly, Erin's Sling is +5 damage, +5 THAC0, and with +2 Bullets (forget the +4s, we're saving those for rainy days), that's 1D4+8 per bullet.
6 attacks gives 54-72 damage, plus 30 from grand mastery, plus 48 from Strength.
132-150 damage. 141 damage average.
So still using base strength, no boosts beyond Improved Haste and the "best" sling, we're now 5 average damage per hit off the Drow +3 Crossbow, that's only available in the Underdark, that assumes a 50% failure rate on its save. They're also now 4 THAC0 better'n the crossbow.
No, it's not hard to get slings to a point where they're beating bows, or even consistently outdamaging them per round, without even investing very much into it.
1: No that's not a highly optimised Sling user.
2: No I'm not claiming slings are better than bows, merely that they are both mechanically viable choices and most assuredly not terrible.
3: And yes, this is objective, I am merely supplying mathematical data.
Crossbows still suck though.
Anyway, for fun:
Firetooth
2D4+3 +1D2 fire damage.
8 Attacks under Improved Haste.
48-104, plus 40 from Grand Mastery, plus 64 from 20 Strength.
180 average damage.
Yes, the Throwing Knife is going to be the best ranged weapon in the game. Problem, archers?
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/26286/bug-review-list-strength-damage-bonus-on-ranged-weapons-th0#latest
Also, the Arrow of biting claims to deal -30% HP, unless the target saves. I think I missed the 7 points poison somehow.