Suggestion for new NPC (spoilers)

Wayniac

I've read a lot of the things and arguments for/against saving or having Clara as an NPC. I wrote down the basic argument for the positive and negative of doing this and I see the basic arguments as follows:

PRO
Good parties have a better path to choose that allows them a thief other than Jan. As of now, there is not really a great thief that a good party can have join, and Jan is a multiclass character. Having a character that is focused on thieving skills for a good party would be much appreciated.

CON
Some portion of people will be disappointed with Clara's story and design no matter what happens. Each person arguing for saving Clara has painted a picture in their own head about what the new character would be like, and there is no way EVERYONE will be happy. The down side to not having another solution here is that good parties still have no viable option for a thief in the party.


So I don't know why we can't collaborate here and come up with a solution that makes both groups of people happy. Instead of saving Clara and having her be playable, why can't we maybe save her and have her run off, which triggers a side quest that results in having a good or neutral thief join our party.

Perhaps she has a brother who is grateful that we saved her, and even though she is a mindless zombie at the moment, they hope she becomes better with time. As a result, her brother pledges his allegiance to us in hopes that he can find something during our adventure that can help cure her.

Or maybe she still dies, but because we avenge her death, her spirit is thankful and leads us to a lover (male or female) who is sad and mourning her loss. They are upset about the events that happened and thank us for avenging her death and join our party because we seek clearly seek to do good.

Those are just a couple suggestions that I was tossing around in my head. I feel like there could be a solution here that would satisfy both groups of people. I don't see why we can't provide good parties with a viable option for a thief as well as keep Clara's actual personality out of this so we don't inevitably crush the dreams of those who have already imagined her to be something greater.

Erinne

Or maybe they could add a good or neutral thief who has no connection to Clara/Hexxat whatsoever.

Eudaemonium

There's already a Neutral Thief (Jan) and 2 Good part-thieves (Imoen, Nalia, both of whom are perfectly usable considering players used them for 13 years without much complaint), though. Really they should add a Neutral Fighter-type, because Neutral doesn't really have one of them at all.

SapphireIce101

I agree with Erinne, and Eudaemonium. However, I think the game needs another bard. Haer'Dalis just isn't enough. :P

Eudaemonium

Another bard would be fun (a more bard-like bard too), so I won't say no to that.

Female Dwarven Barbarian/Skald hybrid =P

SapphireIce101

That Female Dwarven Barbarian/Skald hybrid has the Sapphire Seal of Approval.

Wayniac

Eudaemonium said:

There's already a Neutral Thief (Jan) and 2 Good part-thieves (Imoen, Nalia, both of whom are perfectly usable considering players used them for 13 years without much complaint), though. Really they should add a Neutral Fighter-type, because Neutral doesn't really have one of them at all.

What are you talking about? Nalia is not a good character to use if you want a good thief, and you don't get Imoen until late in the game. Yoshimo... well, we know what happens to Yoshimo, and Jan is a thief multiclass.

I think your argument is a tad silly that you include Imoen and Nalia as viable options for a thief while simultaneously excluding Jaheira and Anomen as neutral fighters. I'm not saying they are good fighters, but they are just as much fighters as Nalia, Imoen, and Jan are thieves.

Besides, I was trying to come up with a solution that fits along with the intended purpose. Clearly, Beamdog intended for Hexxat to be a thief. If you don't get Hexxat, or there is an alternate questline, I feel like it makes sense and causes the least amount of issues if the replacement NPC is also a thief.

And if we want to look at pure classes, we can compare the list of fighter types to the list of thief types and see what we are really lacking here.

For single class fighter types, we have:
Minsc
Keldorn
Valygar
Mazzy
Haer'Dalis
Korgan
Sarevok
Dorn
Wilson
Rasaad

For single class thief types, we have:
Yoshimo (who betrays you then dies)
Hexxat (whom you can only get if you are despicably evil)

It seems to me that we have an overly large pool of characters to pick for melee abilities who will continue to grow in those skills and gain their HLAs but we have only three characters in the game who continue to grow as a thief, two of which will gain their HLAs, one of which you can get if you're truly a good aligned party.

Mechalibur

Eudaemonium said:

There's already a Neutral Thief (Jan) and 2 Good part-thieves (Imoen, Nalia, both of whom are perfectly usable considering players used them for 13 years without much complaint), though. Really they should add a Neutral Fighter-type, because Neutral doesn't really have one of them at all.

Nalia is a usable character, but not really a usable thief. To get her unlock/disarm traps up to scratch, you need to use a thieving potion every time you come across a possible trap, which really isn't feasible. Imoen has all the points she needs, but joins later in the game.

That being said, I still don't see it as a problem. You get Yoshimo for as long as you don't have Imoen. There's really no reason to take Yoshimo out, just because he's neutral doesn't mean he's unusable in a good party Only possible reason would be his ties with the Shadow Thieves, but he doesn't make you do that quest to stay in the party.

A single classed neutral fighter would be cool, I guess, but it's not really needed. Good characters like Minsc work fine in a mostly neutral party.

Eudaemonium

My point was more that people have done perfectly well through the years with Nalia, Imoen, and Jan, to say nothing of Yoshimo until you get Imoen back, which is a completely valid use of a character. Hexxat's addition was intended to address the imbalance that if you wanted an Evil-aligned team it 1) Wasn't actually possible since there were only 3 NPCs before ToB, and 2) It more-or-less required you to be a Thief. I didn't see loads of people complaining over the years that BG2 required you to always play a Thief regardless of character alignment because Imoen and Nalia were unserviceable. If Imoen had stayed dead as per original intent, then a case could be made, but as it is Imoen is a perfectly valid utility thief, which ultimately is what you *need* a Thief for in BG2: Traps/Locks. Everything else is a bonus. The lack of an Evil utility thief was what people were grumbling about to begin with.

And honestly I hope if they *do* add another thief via DLC I hope to all the gods that do or do not exist that it isn't Clara.

element

Eudaemonium said:

And honestly I hope if they *do* add another thief via DLC I hope to all the gods that do or do not exist that it isn't Clara.

How come? i'm not trying to be difficult I just wonder what people have against it I don't really see what there is to dislike about them adding her assuming it was well executed. If they intend to add a dlc character seems like they may as well add one they already have an installed fanbase for.

Many seem to want Clara as an npc, personaly id just be happy with a less character breaking resolution to that story line, like saving her then loosing her as an npc or just getting the option to try and save her but not being able too. My main issue has always just been how it forces my character to behave

AcridSyphilis

Because it basically ruins the power of Hexxat's entrance, bowdlerizes a tragedy, and most people who are clamoring for it are imagining a character as she ~could have been~ instead of what she was. If such a DLC was released, I can imagine a lot of outcry of "that wasn't how i imagined her!" when really 99% of the time she was with you she is practically a drooling zombie, except instead of saying "brains" she was going "dragomir's tomb"

element

so how do you think it would be if they simply changed the scene to allow the player character to act rather then remain static. Maybe saving her then sending her away to some temple or trying to save her and failing? this is really what I would want. My main issue with the content was that no matter what I did I felt like I broke character I could either ignore her pleas for help leaving her to die in the inn or just go inert and watch her die to Hexxat in the tomb.

shawne

@element: Shall we also change all the other scenes where the player character is unable to act? Because you could have just grabbed Imoen and run from the Cowled Wizards at the start of the game; you could have stopped the Harper Assassin from killing Xzar; you could have paralyzed Yoshimo instead of killing him; Anomen/Jaheira/Aerie/Viconia could have easily stopped Bodhi from kidnapping them. You could have done a lot of things differently during cutscenes where your characters don't move.

But you can't do these things, because they derail the story. And that's why you can't (and shouldn't be able to) save Clara.

AcridSyphilis

Well i didn't mind because I was legitimately surprised, and I feel the scene happened quick enough that I felt like it was realisitic enough that my character didn't get a chance to save her. I had the same reaction when the harper killed Xzar.


I think maybe an ineffective option as you suggested would be alright. I mean, there are tons of times where you have different dialogue/actions but the same thing ultimately happens. But I think ultimately for Hexxat's story Clara's death is necessary. I remain steadfast on that. And I think bringing back her as an NPC is cheap. A permanent death is a lot more impactful.

Eudaemonium

I wouldn't mind the option to *try* and save her, and fail miserably at it, simply to avoid breaking your immersion. But the game is full of immersion-breaking moments as it is, and I fail to see why this specific one needs to change other than in service to some kind of player power fantasy about always being able to save a poor girl from a tragic fate. (And honestly, other things added in EE break my immersion far more. Most recently Neera marking the location of her secret hideout on your map when you tell her you have no idea who she is and want nothing to do with her or her hippie commune friends. Or the fact that you can't enter the Thayan Enclave with Edwin even after the quest is completed and you're just using the shop).

If modders want to add ways to save Clara, then that's fine by me. I can just pretend the mods don't exist.

element

@Shawne I understand that view but there's a major difference between story essential moments as in Imoens case and what is essentially a side quest. And in terms of derailing the story that isn't actually applicable at this point as a good player is most likely killing Hexxat immediately after the incident any way(which is supported). You could only really consider it derailing if you could save/intervene with Clara and still continue in some form. As that's not what I am suggesting it couldn't be considered to be derailing the story, It would simply be an alternate end to that side story, and In a near identical manner to how it would have ended anyway for a good Pc

@AcridSyphillis I think the main problem from an RP perspective is just that it really seems like an artificial tragedy. I never felt like Claras death was something I couldn't help, I felt like it happened because I wasn't allowed to help. I think that in essence is why it needs changing. I wont lie and say I wouldn't like a new npc in Clara but neither is it something particularly desire all I really want is for the scene to make sense to me and my character. I'm fine with some tragedy but it should feel authentic.

shawne

@element: No difference at all, actually. Practically every moment other than Imoen's kidnapping can be sidestepped if you're metagaming: if you don't talk to Xzar, he won't die. If you don't romance any of the original BG2 love interests, Bodhi won't kidnap them. If you don't go into the werewolf trap, Safana and Coran aren't killed.

But if you are playing this game for the story, then there will always be plot events that happen whether your character could theoretically stop them or not. And since Clara's death is a story-essential moment for Hexxat, it doesn't matter that you might have been able to save her - that, like the above-mentioned examples, is not your choice to make.

SapphireIce101

I wouldn't mind an option to save Clara, and better her life. I also wouldn't mind the option of Charname failing to save her either. However, I just don't see her becoming a follower. Her stats, for a lack of a better word, suck.

There are already four completely viable thieves for a good/neutral aligned party, six for neutral if you want to count Hexxat, and dual-classing Sarevok to thief in ToB. The only real thief that needs work is Nalia, but with the Mercykiller Ring, and Amulet of the Master Harper, as well as some thieving potions, then Nalia is plenty viable as a thief. I mean, there is a reason why there are a lot of thieving potions in the game.

I also agree with @AcridSyphilis. I just don't see Clara as being as awesome as people think she is, or want her to be. I mean, the only awesome, or epic, moment in Clara's life is being dominated by Hexxat.

As for the cutscene with Clara and Hexxat. I think that is supposed to show the good aligned people that they can't save everyone, and its silly to think otherwise.

element

SapphireIce101 said:

As for the cutscene with Clara and Hexxat. I think that is supposed to show the good aligned people that they can't save everyone, and its silly to think otherwise.

well that's fine, but if that's the case the scene should show it in a convincing way. Watching the scene I should feel like I cant save her as a result of in game events and story not because of an artificial constraint imposed upon me.


im sorry @shawne I don't mean to sound rude but if you cant see the difference between a plot point required to make the central story of the entire game function and a plot point of an entirely non essential side quest which causes almost no notable difference to the storyline of a good aligned pc, theres not really much point in talking to you simply because you obviously aren't willing to listen

shawne

@element: I've given multiple examples of both essential and nonessential plot points in the above post - you have, to date, been unable or unwilling to discuss any of them. So you're right, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

SapphireIce101

@element - Honestly, I don't think they should have used the text box. I think that's why people are getting the notion that they can save Clara. People don't seem to understand that its happening instantly. I think if they would have done it like one of the chapter cutscenes without a text box, I think people would understand it a lot better.

Edit: There are no chat boxes in single player BG. Totally meant Text Box.

Wayniac

shawne said:

@element: No difference at all, actually. Practically every moment other than Imoen's kidnapping can be sidestepped if you're metagaming: if you don't talk to Xzar, he won't die. If you don't romance any of the original BG2 love interests, Bodhi won't kidnap them. If you don't go into the werewolf trap, Safana and Coran aren't killed.

I feel like you just made a case for allowing players to save Clara and you didn't even know it. Coran can be saved. It is incredibly difficult, but you can do it. And after you do, he talks about how depressed he is and how he is going to drown his sorrows with booze and women.

So given that you CAN save Coran, and you were using it as an argument for not being allowed to save Clara, would you not now agree that the player should be allowed to try to intervene?

shawne

@Wayniac: I've come to the conclusion that you see saving Clara as something that should happen, and no discussion is going to persuade you otherwise. Like @element, you fixate on a specific example while ignoring everything else, as if that proves your point. Sure, you can save Coran if you're going into that area knowing exactly what to do - but guess what? You can't save Safana that way. Or Xzar, or Montaron, or Ajantis, or Yoshimo. These deaths have meaning because the player can't avert them; and if that's not a point you agree with, you can wait for the modding community to offer non-canonical alternatives (as they already do in the case of most character deaths in the game).

element

@shawne well maybe I was rude

so your listing events in which people cant be saved despite the fact they aren't major plot points? to what effect? maybe I miss your point but i shall attempt to answer in case it is me in the wrong

Yes characters like Xzar dying is inevitable whilst doing his quest. However, just because it occurs elsewhere in the game doesn't mean its a desirable state that should be repeated. A poor gameplay/narrative element there does not justify a poor gameplay/narrative element here. Yes Xzar dies, yes its stupid that you cant do anything about it, but that doesn't mean they should apply the same system again especially when it was so unpopular the first time. I would point out though that even Xzars crappy death is handled more effectively the Claras even if it is very bad in itself

Coran and Safana is actually quite a good example of this concept done quite well as is Ajantis. Yes you cannot save them and while in that way you may feel disappointed there deaths are presented in a way in which the player generally feels they could do no other. Ajantis was cool but without meta knowledge and some crazy disabling spells my character regardless of alignment could not have behaved in a different manner, I might be sad but I can accept it. The same is true for Safana yes she dies but as the player your not put in a situation were you could realistically do otherwise. This is especially true when It turns out she's actually your enemy and even more justifiable narratively given that from the first game you already know its in keeping with her character that she would betray you. If Claras death was handled in a way in which I genuinely felt was unavoidable I may have been disappointed but it would be acceptable as it wouldn't force me out of character. Also maybe it was a mistake but I would point out that you can save Coran and even ask him to join to you. The problem though is that as the audience/pc I don't think 'poor Clara its sad it ended this way' I think 'why did I just stand there and watch that'. My main problem has never been that Clara dies and I cant accept it, it has always been Clara dies and I just cant experience it without breaking my character and immersion. quite frankly I just find it to be uncomfortable to sit through

i wont go into meta-gaming because I think we can all agree that cant be taken into account during story telling. I would point out though it isn't possible to meta game around Claras death like you can some others. You are forced into dialogue with her in the copper coronet in which you are told she doesn't eat so even if you ignore the quest she would presumably die(and apparently does so). Further more even if you assume she doesn't Hexxat still a appears in TOB and as such can be assumed to have murdered Clara as she would had you been there. As a good character you essentially get backed into a character breaking corner in which you either leave a suffering girl to potentially starve herself or you help her only to stand by and watch her get eaten.

element

shawne said:

@Wayniac: I've come to the conclusion that you see saving Clara as something that should happen, and no discussion is going to persuade you otherwise. Like @element, you fixate on a specific example while ignoring everything else

I don't think you read my posts if your saying I cant see an alternative beyond saving Clara I actualy suggested some that I thought would be better.

The thing is your just justifying it based on the fact the same system is done else were and on top of that a lot of your examples are poor. You cant save Yoshimo because there is no way to save Yohimo. He will die regardless of what you do in that situation. You cant save Montaron because he' dead before your involved. you cant save Ajantis because you don't know its him. Safana sure but she is actively working against you. Out of those Xzar is the only relevant comparison and its pretty universaly accepted that his death was handled poorly. Clara though is very much saveable at the very least she is in a situation in which your character could have input she's standing directly next to you and even engages in pre death conversation.
You cant save Clara because they don't let you save Clara theres no reasonable explanation in the narrative for you to not to be able to at least attempt to. If the narrative explicitly set up a situation in which I could say yes that makes sense I would accept it but as it is , its merely a contrivance

Wayniac

shawne said:

@Wayniac: I've come to the conclusion that you see saving Clara as something that should happen, and no discussion is going to persuade you otherwise. Like @element, you fixate on a specific example while ignoring everything else, as if that proves your point.

Then you clearly didn't read my first post. I'm not fixated on saving Clara. I'm cool if she dies. In fact, one of my suggestions was that she stays dead but someone else joins your party instead. I was just trying to collaborate some ideas. To be completely honest with you, I kind of like Hexxat.

I just think it is silly for you to try to make your point with an example that just simply isn't true, then when it is shot down, you claim that I am the one fixated on something. I'm cool if she dies, but the reason shouldn't be, "because you can't save other NPCs like Coran."

element

I would also weigh in with that and also say im also fine with Clara dying I simply want them to present it in a way that doesn't break my enjoyment

@Eudaemon sorry I missed that yeh see that would be fine by me I don't need to save her I just need to be able justify why I couldn't/didn't. Ofcourse I can only comment on issues I experienced and out of those this was the only one which bothered me to this extent. Immersion breaking is always going to happen I just think in this issue it really could have been avoided and greatly to the benefit of the content