*Spoiler* Dorn.
Edwin_Odesseiron
Member Posts: 226
What is the point of freeing him? He loses his abilities and becomes worse than a generic fighter. Yes, I understand, the price of freedom is high. However, I'm not just strictly speaking from a gameplay point of view, but also an RP one. Evil-orientated parties would not want to free him, and non-evil parties would unlikely have Dorn in the first place due to his initial quest (not to mention others.) In fact, they'd probably kill him outright. So in either scenario, Dorn cops the raw end of the stick, both from gameplay AND RP perspectives.
In my current evil playthrough, I did not free him because he said he found it odd that he still had his Blackguard powers after Ur-Gothoz was slain. This was a warning sign that if he was freed, he's lose everything that made him worthwhile. So, of course, being evil, I don't care about his freedom, only what uses he can be to my cause, and advised him to serve Azothet, which he did. Of course, he retained his powers and is very useful to the party.
Nothing further has happened since.
My questions are..
- Does serving Azothet have a part later on (will he get more quests to do her bidding?)
- What is the RP point of view for those of you who did free him (if you're evil)? What's your reasoning behind this?
-And what happens if you free him? What does he do with his newfound freedom?
In my current evil playthrough, I did not free him because he said he found it odd that he still had his Blackguard powers after Ur-Gothoz was slain. This was a warning sign that if he was freed, he's lose everything that made him worthwhile. So, of course, being evil, I don't care about his freedom, only what uses he can be to my cause, and advised him to serve Azothet, which he did. Of course, he retained his powers and is very useful to the party.
Nothing further has happened since.
My questions are..
- Does serving Azothet have a part later on (will he get more quests to do her bidding?)
- What is the RP point of view for those of you who did free him (if you're evil)? What's your reasoning behind this?
-And what happens if you free him? What does he do with his newfound freedom?
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from role-playing perspective, you helped him attain freedom and he is less fissy about killing, death and evil oriented stuff during the game.
from a gameplay perspective, he basically loses his ability to use his black guard abilities as well as his ability to cast cleric spells. This setback is quite detrimental to his abilities to perform in a party,
i kept him all-in-all because he was a valuable companion and a decent tank.
he will still be able to use HLA's like fallen deva.
A good party wouldn't even have Dorn in the party in the first place (after all, his first quest is killing people at a wedding.) Good parties would kill Dorn immediately upon meeting him.
A lawful neutral or true neutral party would do the same as a good one.
A Chaotic Neutral one MIGHT recruit him (because they want him, as he is powerful), but then why would they free him since the only reason they tolerate his company would be because he is powerful?
It doesn't make sense for any alignment. Either you wouldn't get Dorn at all, or you do have him but you wouldn't want to save him.
And from a gameplay perspective, you wouldn't free him either, because you want him to be as powerful as possible to help your cause.
If his initial quest wasn't so evil, then this whole thing would be better. But as it stands, it makes zero sense.
As for the mechanical changes, xetatan summed it up nicely. He becomes a Fallen Blackguard and loses access to all his powers, but also the ability to use Ir'revykal, the Blackguard version of Carsomyr (which is a pretty hefty cost in itself). I think it might change some later dialogues, but I haven't played ToB yet. I know it does *not* change his epilogues, however.
From a meta/powergaming perspective, the best choice actually seems to be to
Regardless, Azothet doesn't seem stupid. It does not seem she would ask things of Dorn that would lose his worship of her, because that is the mistake Ur-Gothoz made. So one could reason out that she'd be a more reasonable mistress, and if this ever changes, then charname would just convince Dorn to dump Azothet.
Besides, Azothet saw what charname/Dorn are capable of. It seems unlikely she would cross that line and end up being skewered herself. She gets a powerful servant, and charname gets a powerful ally. Everyone wins.
I just started TOB after finishing SOA with Dorn in my party. Since the completion of the quest in question, Azothet has been silent and has demanded nothing of Dorn. I want to see how it pans out.
One of the first things Dorn tells you is that Ur-Gothoz's tasks are becoming more and more erratic and risky, so that provides the initial motivation to take him down (especially since Ur-Gothoz doesn't seem to like you at all - he could order Dorn to kill you at any moment, and there would be nothing either of you could do to stop it).
And then there's Azothet, who you know absolutely nothing about except for two things: She's an enemy of Ur-Gothoz, and she's considerably smarter/subtler than he is, since (for all intents and purposes) she succeeds in stealing a glabrezu's agent out from under him.
Now, from a RP perspective, your motivation for freeing Dorn from both patrons (and accepting the power loss that comes as a result) is simple and completely unrelated to your alignment: so long as Dorn has a master whose aims and agendas are not necessarily in tandem with your own, you will always be risking your life by having him around (Azothet may be a baatezu, but she never makes any promises to you if she becomes Dorn's patron). If Dorn is free, his loyalty will be to you and you alone.
I didn't get the answer there to my questions, so I posted here. And I still haven't gotten an answer:
DOES ANYTHING HAPPEN if you choose Azothet?!!!
Does no one know, or does nothing happen?
In response to your argument, Dorn doesn't strike me as the typically loyal type anyhow. He betrays a being that gives him *power*, he's not going to stay loyal to a being that doesn't if the opportunity came up to screw them over.. UNLESS he's bound to another entity (one which is evidently intelligent and would know not to cross a Bhaalspawn due to her previous experience with them/Bhaalspawn prophecies in play.)
Dorn's "loyalty" is only present because he witnesses the power of charname and respects it. After charname helps him kill Ur-Gothoz (as well as the various other things charname does) Dorn would know that charname's power far exceeds his own, and he would lose should they ever cross swords. In that way, both mistress and servant know not to cross charname. Azothet knows she could never have had enough power to slay Ur-Gothoz on her own, I doubt she'd attempt to kill someone who managed it. Whereas, left to his own devices, (being more arrogant than he is smart), Dorn would have a higher chance of turning on charname than by having a mistress who respects the power of charname.
Otherwise, freeing him = him being weak. An evil charname would not tolerate weakness and would likely replace Dorn the moment someone more powerful came along (Sarevok.) A good or neutral charname would not have Dorn in the first place.
The only other RP thing I can think of which actually makes sense, is telling Dorn that you would become his patron if you ever ascended, and him agreeing to it. That way, there'd be a reason for charname to free him, (and tolerate his weakness in the meantime) because it means getting a powerful, capable servant one day. This should be implemented. As things stand, I would never consider freeing Dorn because it doesn't make sense to.
As for roleplaying reasons, people have brought up not wanting to worry about appeasing a patron, and without his Blackguard powers, he's still a very strong half-orc with a huge sword. He is not *as* powerful, but he is still a force to be reckoned with. He is weaker but not necessarily weak. My kensai->druid freed him because he respected his skill at arms but disapproved of his status as an unwilling servant.
1. You assume you could have beaten Ur-Gothoz in a straight fight. Don't forget that the only reason you're able to take him out at all is because you're using a unique weapon and an elaborate ritual; and given that these tools can be used on Azothet just as easily, they're not an accurate reflection of your power at that point in the game. It's not like you can pull the same trick on Demogorgon whenever you feel like it - once you leave Resurrection Gorge, your demon-binding days are over.
2. You assume Azothet isn't a cause for concern. About all we can say for certain is that she's not one of the Nine Archdukes, but that doesn't say much - the actual extent of her power in relation to a Bhaalspawn is completely unknown. And remember, she's a baatezu: it's pretty significant that she makes no guarantees for you (since she'd be bound by her word). All she says is that she'll be a better patron than Ur-Gothoz, which would be true anyway because she's Lawful rather than Chaotic. But there's no indication that Azothet truly respects or fears the Bhaalspawn, even after you bind Ur-Gothoz.
3. You assume that Dorn is more likely to betray you if he's acting on his own free will. This is categorically false given how the remainder of his "fallen blackguard" storyline plays out in SoA and ToB.
@Shawne I never took Dorn in BG:EE so I have no idea what he's like there. That being said, your point works more in my favour than yours. If he swears allegiance to you JUST because you're a Bhaalspawn, that means he would likely betray you the second someone more powerful came along and change his allegiance to them.
Now, to respond to your 1, 2, 3 points:
1. I have no idea what you're talking about here. You do not have a unique weapon when taking out Ur-Gothoz (not one designed for that purpose), and the "elaborate ritual" was simply to bring the demon there. It's *after you kill him* that the sword is imbued with power. So yes, you can and do beat Ur-Gothoz in a straight fight. No assumption.
2. Azothet is a Marilith, not a Baatezu, firstly. And yes, some things you have to assume. I mean, you assume that Dorn would not kill you when you first take him into your party if Ur-Gothoz commanded it. And at that point, Ur-Gothoz is completely in charge of Dorn and Dorn would do his bidding without question. AFTER the slaying of Ur-Gothoz, things have fundamentally changed in the dynamic of the relationship between Charname/Dorn/Azothet. Both Dorn and Azothet now know what you are capable of and there is at least a respect there where there wasn't before between Charname/Dorn/Ur-Gothoz. So me ASSUMING that Azothet isn't a cause for concern is actually MUCH safer than me ASSUMING Ur-Gothoz isn't a cause for concern when I first meet him (ESPECIALLY when you take into account the brutality of his immediate quest.) That is because I have no history with Ur-Gothoz, but I now do with Azothet. All points regarding Charname's safety because of Azothet are automatically null and void due to the fact that Charname is in far greater danger upon initially meeting Dorn under Ur-Gothoz.
3. You are basing your judgment here on knowledge of how his story already plays out. That's meta-gaming. I am talking from an RP point of view where you have *no* idea what's going to happen. From that perspective, my reasoning lies in the fact that Dorn is turncoat for reasons explained above. And if we look at it from a meta-game point of view, the fact that you *know* that Azothet asks nothing of him and the decision has no real impact on storyline, then that is even more of a reason not to save him and have him become a gimped fighter.
Otherwise you are meta-gaming and this is nothing to do with RP.
Basically, I think you just have too strict a definition of what a neutral character would do. If neutral characters couldn't abide evil, they'd be good; neutral people are great at looking the other way or even experiencing some schadenfreude when evil happens to someone they don't like or outside their field of vision.
Neutral characters are neutral, yes. But this act is so obviously evil that only an evil character could accept it upon meeting Dorn.
So if trust is the issue under Azothet, Dorn should be considered doubly untrustworthy under Ur-Gothoz. If trust is not the issue, then you want Dorn for power. Without a patron, he is powerless, therefore, a gimped fighter.
A good party wouldn't take him. An evil party wouldn't keep him (or at least keep him until someone better comes along. Sarevok, for example) without his powers.
His questline sucks from both a gameplay and an RP. I realise what they were trying to do, but for me, this failed miserably. You can console yourself if you wish, but you are making zero sense.
The bottom line is this: If you do not trust Dorn under Azothet, you shouldn't have taken him in the first place when he was under the influence of Ur-Gothoz, (which is before he got to know your strength and capabilities, and would have easily turned on you.) Dorn under Azothet knows you and your capabilities, so even IF Azothet commanded him to kill you, he would be hesitant. Whereas if Ur-Gothoz commanded him to kill you he would not blink an eyelid because he doesn't know you yet, has no attachment, and feels he could best you. You can't claim one side but ignore the other. Azothet is the best path for Dorn, both from gameplay and RP point of view. End of story.
* "Better the devil you know" applies to Ur-Gothoz, not Azothet. He's Dorn's original patron, he's the one Dorn tells you about in both games, and his erratic commands are the starting point of Dorn's BG2:EE storyline. Azothet's motives, agendas and attitude towards you are completely unknown.
* Why would you recruit him in Athkatla when he's under Ur-Gothoz's control? Because at first, Dorn comes off as an incredibly powerful warrior who gets the occasional side mission - that doesn't make him any different from Nalia's need to liberate her home or Keldorn's hunt for the Unseeing Eye. You have no way of knowing that Ur-Gothoz is hostile towards you until you actually come face to face with him.
* Dorn being "hesitant" makes absolutely no difference: if Azothet or Ur-Gothoz command him to kill you, he'll either do it or die trying. That's the whole point of his status as a blackguard: he has to do things he wouldn't necessarily choose to do.
* From a gameplay POV, the best path for Dorn is to stay with Ur-Gothoz, because you get an additional bonus item that you don't get by staying with Azothet.
* From a RP point of view, it depends on what your character believes. Most party members (including Edwin and Hexxat) will advise Dorn to choose freedom over power, which makes sense for self-interested characters; if you take the position that power is more important, you let Dorn keep a patron (and it doesn't really matter who that patron is, because you're accepting that he will remain a blackguard and thus will never be truly loyal to you).
After all, Ur-Gothoz didn't think charname was any sort of threat, and look where that got him.
"Better the devil you know" applies to Azothet because you have had dealings with her. I am not assuming a continuation of the BG:EE story here, just a brand new story in BG2:EE for Dorn. So you don't know Ur-Gothoz from a bar of soap. He is just some demon this strange new Half-Orc serves. In his OPENING conversation, Dorn openly tells you he has murdered women and children for his patron, and now he is assigned to murder a priest. That tells you something immediately: Ur-Gothoz is a malevolent entity that has no remorse or goodness. But that's it. You know nothing more about him. Moreover, if you are of evil bent, you take in this new stranger because to do such misdeeds for his master, it stands to reason he must be granted great powers in return. If you are good, you would simply dismiss or kill him for his vileness.
As Dorn's story develops, you learn more about how messed up his situation is due to this demon. Then you actually EXPERIENCE the entire storyline from beginning to end concerning Azothet. She witnesses your power as you banish Ur-Gothoz, her rival. Once Dorn is under her sphere of influence, it just seems utterly absurd that she would turn on Charname after seeing what he can do. She *knows* what you do. Ur-Gothoz had no dealings with you and did not know you or your power. Thus, Azothet, not Ur-Gothoz, is the devil you know. You have history with her, because you see her for the first time when Dorn sees her for the first time- UNLIKE Ur-Gothoz.
Ayiekie pretty much summed up my thoughts concerning the matter: Azothet should know she is no match for charname, because she has witnessed what charname can do. Ur-Gothoz did not, until he met his doom.
Honestly, if you cannot grasp this simple point, do not bother replying with further nonsense. You're wasting my time reading your inane drivel.
Meanwhile, Azothet shows up, ignores me, tempts Dorn into betraying Ur-Gothoz, and then reveals herself as a devil at the moment she picks up Dorn's reins. If anything would tell you that you don't know her or her agenda, it's that reveal. Just because you meet her at the same as Dorn doesn't mean you have "a history." You have two minutes of experience dealing with her, during which she ignores you, which doesn't somehow make her more trustworthy simply because Dorn hasn't known her for longer. She may, from that two minutes conclude that it would be better not to oppose you directly, but she's a devil. Corrupting people and bringing about their downfall indirectly is what she does. It's exactly what you see her do to Ur-Gothoz: eliminate a rival without fighting him directly. That doesn't scream "trustworthy." That tells you that with her as Dorn's patron you're going to have constantly watch your back for the blade coming from an unexpected quarter.
There's another possibility you are overlooking, which is the fact that Dorn is romanceable. I could easily see a character in love with Dorn pushing him towards an outcome that seems better for him in the long run and won't force him to put some other entity ahead of you.
Finally, you're really overstating Dorn's "weakness" if he falls. The only significant difference between Dorn and a Fighter post-fall is the difference between specialization and grand mastery; a mere +2 hit, +3 damage, and 0.5 apr. That's a minor disadvantage on paper and all but imperceptible from an RP standpoint. He is weaker than he was, yes, but he is still far from weak.
Though really, it's a role-playing thing. I went with Azothet for the reasons above; with a slightly different character, I'd have killed them both. With a more devious character, I might've gone with Ur-Gothoz with a 'now he owes me one, and also knows what I could do to him' sort of outlook.
Anyways, imagine your character is a good-aligned level 1 mage (or similar) still shaking in his boots over the death of this father figure, Gorion. His best friend Imoen just gave up her place of safety in Candlekeep to follow him, so now he feels like he needs to protect her as best as he can, but with a max of 2 spells to his name, his INT is high enough that he just knows he isn't going to get very far on his own. Yeah, he met up with Jaheira and Khalid, but they don't exactly inspire a lot of confidence, since Khalid is so easily startled and seems to be afraid of his shadow, and Jaheira seems like just a lot of talk.
Then, he meets Dorn, who...
helps him fight against the bandits that ambushed him. Yeah, Dorn's perspective is that he's revenge killing one of the men that set him up for prison time, but your character's perspective is that this frankly terrifying half-orc just SAVED YOUR LIFE, despite ulterior motives, as well as the lives of Imoen and the rest of the party.
Especially if your character is chaotic good, I'd say your character would be willing to give Dorn the benefit of the doubt there. Further still, throughout BG1, Dorn's quest involves...
ONLY killing the obviously evil characters that set him up in Luskan.
So, your character isn't super likely to kick him out of the party for that. Through the course of BG1 there's plenty of time for your character to build a rapport with Dorn. Your character could begin to consider that yeah, Dorn's made bad decisions in the past and aligned himself with bad people (and demons), but Dorn himself is not irredeemable.
Fast forward to BG2. When your character meets Dorn again, Dorn is pretty up front about his bloodthirsty quest, but also that it isn't exactly by choice. Dorn's being manipulated by the ghosts of his past, and your character, who knows from BG1 that Dorn isn't irredeemable, might feel a sense of duty for helping Dorn here where Dorn helped him in BG1, and wants to help save Dorn from Ur-Gothoz, and mitigate the damage caused by Ur-Gothoz's demands.
And once Dorn's in the party, and you've helped him with the first task, well, your character is stuck in for a penny, in for a pound. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.
Kaigen, you make a sound point (aside from your BG1:EE orientated first paragraph, which has no bearing whatsoever.) The romance aspect is the only thing I hadn't even thought about, so I suppose that could be a reason to free him.
But that would be the *only* two things acceptable from an RP perspective. If you had either traveled with him in BG1:EE and thus, knew him beforehand, or if you were in a relationship.
Otherwise, it makes no sense to keep him under the chaotic Ur-Gothoz, but it does to keep him under Azothet (so he can keep his powers, and because Azothet knows what you're capable of. See above.)
I still feel as if this is a very average questline, though. Interesting, to be sure. But otherwise, meh.