#7387 [CORE] - Monks and Ammo

Pantalion

Issue: Despite being unable to use bows and crossbows, Monks can put arrows and bolts in their quivers without restriction.

Expected behaviour: Monks, like mages and clerics, should be unable to equip non-bullet items in their quivers.

Aranneas

this is because the monk proficiency set is based on that of the thief - they've just had their two handed usability revoked because of their built in offhand item. not so much a bug as a consequence of the original game's implementation.

Pantalion

Please note that Monks no longer have an offhand item, and can use single handed weapons in their offhand.

I'm not sure why you say this isn't a bug, if a class cannot use a ranged weapon, they cannot use that ammo type, that Monks could just makes it a bug that was also present in the original, and I'd be surprised if it was something that couldn't be fixed due to the nature of monks, 'twas more likely just an oversight.

Ardanis

Pantalion said:

if a class cannot use a ranged weapon, they cannot use that ammo type

Inability to use ranged weapons means they can't put ammo to use either, whether they're able to carry it or not.

I believe the request should sound - disallow characters to carry ammo they can't use. I wonder if we really want this fixed.

PS Dual wielding for monks is fine. It being disabled in vanilla was an unfortunate consequence of the technical implementation used.

Illydth

I'm confused. Why wouldn't a monk be able to carry a quiver of arrows even if they aren't willing to use a bow? If your best friend hands you his quiver and says "hold this" do you all of a sudden drop it because you aren't trained to use a bow?

Same with a monk's off hand, why couldn't you hold one even if you can't use it? And why wouldn't a monk be able to offhand a weapon?

Moving this to "Not an Issue"

Pantalion

@Illydth

Might I enquire then, as to why there is a restriction on mages and clerics (and presumably, though I've not yet checked, cavaliers), and has been since the first Baldur's Gate?

Whilst I don't consider this to be anything major, and as mentioned above, 'tis likely a simple oversight when creating the Monk in the first place, at very best it's inconsistent.

Illydth

@Pantalion: Hum, now there's an argument I can't match.

Can you do me a favor and list ammo restrictions by class for those classes that can't put all types of ammo in their ammo slots?

Clerics are restricted to blut weapons only, design wise it makes sense to make the CLASS unable to equip anything sharp in any slot...if a bit sloppy coding. Cavilers, as a class, are unable to use ANY ranged weapons...if you tell me they cannot equip ammo at all, that too makes sense, if, again, sloppy coding.

The rest of it, however, I can be persuaded on. What other restrictions are out there? (and am I right on the cleric/caviler?)

Pantalion

@Illydth

No probs, checked over my lunch break:

* No kit restricts missiles in the quiver (not even the Cavalier).

* The Mage, Druid and Cleric cannot equip Bows, Crossbows, Arrows or Bolts (whether by training or morality). I've no idea why Druids aren't allowed to use arrows or bolts when they can use spears, but crazy druid logic is what it is.

* Warrior and Rogue classes can use bows and crossbows (and all ammo types), which for dual/multiclassing overrides Mage "lack of training" but not Priest "morality".

* The Monk cannot use bows or crossbows but can equip arrows and bolts.

Illydth

@Pantalion

I owed you an answer on this and here it is:

This actually makes sense when you look at it. If you read the monk description it says that monks can use thief weapons except 2 handed weapons. That means the BOW is out but the ARROWS are in. As a thief can equip arrows in their quiver so too can monks. Were the 2H restriction not enforced, monks would be able to equip a short bow (as can a thief) and thus arrows.

It's only the 2H restriction that keeps monks from equipping a bow, thus the arrows should be fine.

Pantalion

@Illydth

Not to keep harping on, but having just restarted BG1, I've noticed that Rasaad is once again unable to equip arrows and bolts, making this phenomenon unique to BG2.

Illydth

Heh, damn it, then you have me here. I'll get a bug report on it if there's not already one open.

Bug Reported as #7387.

@Pantalion: I'd like to complement you on your method of handling this the entire way through. You could easily have either thrown your hands up in disgust at my dismissal of your issue or gotten peeved at me. Instead you've calmly stated your case and argued with evidence for your point. You stuck with it and kept up with the thread and @Tagged me to make sure I continued to have visibility to it. Thank you for the cool head and excellent way of not allowing the thread to get lost.

Smiler

Just want to point out that, if anyone does feel the need to flag all missiles as "unusable by cavalier" (and all bolts/arrows as "unusable by monks"), they should probably put "unusable by kensai" as well while they're at it as they have the same missile weapon restriction.