@Nano: Overall, at level 3 there is a minor advantage to the thief in terms of damage (although not to hit), but by level 6 (where the thief gets another +1 to hit, +2 to damage from high mastery and the missile weapon passive, effectively equaling your grand mastery plus having called shot) that will equal out (sans poison, but you only get 1 use of it per day).
A fine analysis, but don't discount poison weapon. It adds 12 damage minimum to every attack you make. That's absolutely huge. Called shot on the other hand is pretty mediocre until you get to high levels. But the most interesting thing about the combo is not the fact that it's stronger than the archer but the way it ramps up so ridiculously fast after gaining one level in thief, the easiest level to get. You get an immediate high mastery and you've almost maximized your potential by level 3. You're practically an endgame character while everyone else is still trying to figure out which end of the sword to hold. All that's left for you is to do is get some hp and thac0 bonuses and prepare for BG2.
If you're actually looking to play this sort of class, though, I'm a big fan of the Assassin 5 (dualed to anything). You get free passive true sight in return and an extra use of poison both of which will serve you well if you take it to BG2. There's that long bow with a massive thac0 bonus and between that, poison and grand mastery I you stand a good chance of killing Firkraag early without any cheese at all. Or you can do the Mazzy build and go for short bows though like Mazzy I think you ultimately want to transition into dual wielding.
Furthermore, this doesn't take into account the fact that this thread discusses most powerful level 1 character. In that case we have an assassin with 17 thac0 and using shortbows (2-7 damage) versus our elven archer with 13 Thac0 at level 1, capable of dealing 5-10 damage with a composite longbow.
That was just me speculating as I'd moved on from level 1 characters. If you want to see my on-topic ideas I provided a few earlier on.
Honestly it sounds like something I'd like to try build wise.
No evil party members use bows by default, the one pip in shortbows or xbows early frees up a pip for bg2 where those are more powerful too.
In my archer run earlier the only time I found myself wishing for poison was against mulhanoly when half my party was dead.
Would dorn poison and assassin poison stack?
If you do give it a shot, I'd be interested to hear about your experiences. The evil thing is a good point and it's a neat concept from an RP standpoint.
For BG1, I find poison to be really strong once you get access to detonation arrows because you can shut down almost any enemy party (Iron Throne, Undercity, etc). It's like an AoE antimagic field. No casters can cast, outside of scripted buffs. Early on I agree there aren't enough tough fights and the damage is probably excessive when Command kills any boss already. Maybe you could lower your reputation for more things to kill
Blackguard and assassin poison stack with themselves so I'm pretty confident that they would stack with each other.
I just started a new game with an Elven Archer, and I am quite impressed with how powerful this kit is!
At level 1 and a composite long bow bought from the prologue inn, and just with standard arrows, my character's stats are as follows:
* THAC0: 14 * Damage per hit: 5-10 (avg: 7.5) * Attacks per round: 5/2 * AC: 4 (could be lower, but I am wearing regular leather armor, not studded leather)
I would offer for consideration the Shapeshifter. At level 1, with no gear, having chosen proficiency in Single-Weapon Style, and in Werewolf form:
* THAC0: 17 * Damage per hit: 8-13 (avg: 10.5) * Attacks per round: 2 * AC: -2
The Archer is going to get one extra attack every two rounds, and will hit more often, and can start attacking at a distance (and so get more hits in against melee opponents before they can attack back), but the Shapeshifter is going to survive longer against tough opponents thanks to a much lower ac.
This character can take out Watchers in Candlekeep. (There are some places where a careful player can attack and kill a single Watcher without alerting others, and without reputation loss.)
The Elven Archer is a powerhouse. If you use the "Dead Shot" and the "Dale's Protector" you can be unstoppable with the right arrows and "Paws of the Cheetah". I beat BG:EE solo with that combo. Arrows of Detonation make the Drizzt fight a joke.
I reckon a Priestess of Talos is 2nd most powerful(maybe 1st) -She can use all armour, all shields -Has only 3 less HP then the archer -Can become IMMUNE to arrows, fire, lightning, and cold -Lightning Bolt at level 1 -And she hasn't even touched her cleric spells yet...
My money would be on her in a duel.
In a duel yes, but I think the author had in mind what is most consistently powerful against low to medium level creatures ... not other PCs.
That said, yes Priest of Talos is pretty awesome.
And priest of Helm gets a +4 sword each day besides true sight...
Actually in a duel Archer is obliterated by pretty much everything. I ran 10 sim duels each between Archer and Half-Orc Barb, Dwarven Defender, Priest of talos (no storm shield activated), Shapeshifter and Beast Master. Archer wearing studded leather and longbow with helmet. DD Splint mail axe and throwing axe and large shield. Barb 2H Sword splint mail and helm. Priest-nothing. Shapeshifter warewolf form no armor, Beast master Staff. Archer vs DD 2 10 duel simulation 0-10; 0-10, whether it is close combat or throwing axe archer stood no chance. Barb-Archer, 5-5 arher can take him out before he closes the distance. Priest-Archer 8-2, Bolt kills archer all the time unless priest gets interrupted with first shot. Shapeshifter-Archer 6-4.
Hm... Yeah, I'm going to go with Fighter/Mage/Cleric as the most powerful level 1 character, then Mage/Cleric, then Fighter/Mage/Thief. Multiclass advantage.
After that is any other mage, because Sleep wins battles by itself that a level 1 character/party has no business winning.
Finally, any Cleric, because Command also wins battles all by itself in BG1.
Only after you've covered the magic users do non-mages get a look-in, because a) It really doesn't matter that your THAC0 and number of attacks per round is when your enemies are all utterly helpless, taking automatic damage until they die, and b) Anyone can abuse the combat mechanics to kite anything to death with missile weapons.
Barbarian with darts: 7/2 apr (3 darts + 1/2 specialist), 16 THAC0 ( 20 - 3 dex -1 specialist), with 18/01-75 strengh 6-8 damage (1-3 from darts, + 2 specialist +3 from str) (7 average) , when raging (str=22) 13-15 damage (14 average) 15 HP: 1d12 + 3(17 con) AC=0 (splint mail AC=4 - 4 from 19 dex) Compared to archer: Better APR, AC, damage and HP than archer worse THAC0 and range. I loved playing Archer butI never tried the Barbarian, so I can't really judge both builds ingame. However, I think both are almost equal depending on the situation.
Actually in a duel Archer is obliterated by pretty much everything. I ran 10 sim duels each between Archer and Half-Orc Barb, Dwarven Defender, Priest of talos (no storm shield activated), Shapeshifter and Beast Master. Archer wearing studded leather and longbow with helmet. DD Splint mail axe and throwing axe and large shield. Barb 2H Sword splint mail and helm. Priest-nothing. Shapeshifter warewolf form no armor, Beast master Staff. Archer vs DD 2 10 duel simulation 0-10; 0-10, whether it is close combat or throwing axe archer stood no chance. Barb-Archer, 5-5 arher can take him out before he closes the distance. Priest-Archer 8-2, Bolt kills archer all the time unless priest gets interrupted with first shot. Shapeshifter-Archer 6-4.
Again, this wasn't meant to refer to duels, but rather to refer to progress on the main quest. I suspect my progress would be far slower if I didn't have someone else (Imoen in particular) as well. I'm not suggesting Archers are strong as a Solo character...I am suggesting they are very strong level 1 characters for killing things from a distance while others are taking the hits.
Slightly off topic, but way back in the day (yes I was an ultimate geek), I went to summer camp for D&D players. Frank was there as well as a few other guys, though not Gary as i recall. Anyway, we were in the lecture hall and Frank asked us (for a prize) to name the 'Advanced' character with the most Hit Points at level 1. Several of the kids raised their hands with varying suggestions on Barbarians with High Con scores. I raised my hand and indicated Wizard and here is why.
In Advanced, Wizards gained full hit points from their Familiars. So if you were a Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil Wizard and cast Find Familiar and got a special, you ended up with a Quasit. The abilities bestowed by the Quasit familiar included 3D8 HP for a grand total (max) of 24. You also immediately got a free extra level, taking you to level 2. So, without so much as a single XP point, if your wizard had a CON of 16 (+2 HP), you could actually have 36 HP which totally blew away the Barbarian. Oh, and the Quasit also bestowed regeneration on the wizard.
Those were the days.... And there was even a Girl at the camp that year. Boy was she popular.
A lawful evil sorcerer/wizard(specialist)/RDD with find familiar can get an imp that can change shape. IIRC the imp has a THAC0 of 12-14, and up to 3 attacks/rnd, possibility of +3 weapon (flind), and mustard jelly with magic immunity. Overall, this should be a solid 1st level character. The weak point is the imp's 9 hp though.
In addition, a level 1 wild mage can in theory (although unreliably) use 9th level mage spells. Finally, the use of all sorts of wands/scrolls makes all first level arcane casters devastating (it's quite easy to obtain wands of fire/cold/paralyzation in bg if you know where to look).
Actually in a duel Archer is obliterated by pretty much everything. I ran 10 sim duels each between Archer and Half-Orc Barb, Dwarven Defender, Priest of talos (no storm shield activated), Shapeshifter and Beast Master. Archer wearing studded leather and longbow with helmet. DD Splint mail axe and throwing axe and large shield. Barb 2H Sword splint mail and helm. Priest-nothing. Shapeshifter warewolf form no armor, Beast master Staff. Archer vs DD 2 10 duel simulation 0-10; 0-10, whether it is close combat or throwing axe archer stood no chance. Barb-Archer, 5-5 arher can take him out before he closes the distance. Priest-Archer 8-2, Bolt kills archer all the time unless priest gets interrupted with first shot. Shapeshifter-Archer 6-4.
Again, this wasn't meant to refer to duels, but rather to refer to progress on the main quest. I suspect my progress would be far slower if I didn't have someone else (Imoen in particular) as well. I'm not suggesting Archers are strong as a Solo character...I am suggesting they are very strong level 1 characters for killing things from a distance while others are taking the hits.
Yeah i understood perfectly, regardless good old fashion duel is a definitive measure (to an extent) of class-kit strength.
[quote]A dagger throwing half-orc berserker might be stronger as well because you get 2 attacks per round (same as bow), strength bonuses AND berserk.[/quote]
Definitely that, although a barbarian kit would be even more powerful with its +4 on str during berserk.
Throwing Axes are also quite nice, lower attack rate but 1-3 more damage and works with axe spec (better than dagger spec in the end, at least for a straight warrior).
Comments
If you're actually looking to play this sort of class, though, I'm a big fan of the Assassin 5 (dualed to anything). You get free passive true sight in return and an extra use of poison both of which will serve you well if you take it to BG2. There's that long bow with a massive thac0 bonus and between that, poison and grand mastery I you stand a good chance of killing Firkraag early without any cheese at all. Or you can do the Mazzy build and go for short bows though like Mazzy I think you ultimately want to transition into dual wielding. That was just me speculating as I'd moved on from level 1 characters. If you want to see my on-topic ideas I provided a few earlier on.
Honestly it sounds like something I'd like to try build wise.
No evil party members use bows by default, the one pip in shortbows or xbows early frees up a pip for bg2 where those are more powerful too.
In my archer run earlier the only time I found myself wishing for poison was against mulhanoly when half my party was dead.
Would dorn poison and assassin poison stack?
For BG1, I find poison to be really strong once you get access to detonation arrows because you can shut down almost any enemy party (Iron Throne, Undercity, etc). It's like an AoE antimagic field. No casters can cast, outside of scripted buffs. Early on I agree there aren't enough tough fights and the damage is probably excessive when Command kills any boss already. Maybe you could lower your reputation for more things to kill
Blackguard and assassin poison stack with themselves so I'm pretty confident that they would stack with each other.
* THAC0: 17
* Damage per hit: 8-13 (avg: 10.5)
* Attacks per round: 2
* AC: -2
The Archer is going to get one extra attack every two rounds, and will hit more often, and can start attacking at a distance (and so get more hits in against melee opponents before they can attack back), but the Shapeshifter is going to survive longer against tough opponents thanks to a much lower ac.
This character can take out Watchers in Candlekeep. (There are some places where a careful player can attack and kill a single Watcher without alerting others, and without reputation loss.)
After that is any other mage, because Sleep wins battles by itself that a level 1 character/party has no business winning.
Finally, any Cleric, because Command also wins battles all by itself in BG1.
Only after you've covered the magic users do non-mages get a look-in, because a) It really doesn't matter that your THAC0 and number of attacks per round is when your enemies are all utterly helpless, taking automatic damage until they die, and b) Anyone can abuse the combat mechanics to kite anything to death with missile weapons.
Barbarian with darts:
7/2 apr (3 darts + 1/2 specialist),
16 THAC0 ( 20 - 3 dex -1 specialist),
with 18/01-75 strengh 6-8 damage (1-3 from darts, + 2 specialist +3 from str) (7 average)
, when raging (str=22) 13-15 damage (14 average)
15 HP: 1d12 + 3(17 con)
AC=0 (splint mail AC=4 - 4 from 19 dex)
Compared to archer: Better APR, AC, damage and HP than archer
worse THAC0 and range.
I loved playing Archer butI never tried the Barbarian, so I can't really judge both builds ingame. However, I think both are almost equal depending on the situation.
In Advanced, Wizards gained full hit points from their Familiars. So if you were a Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil Wizard and cast Find Familiar and got a special, you ended up with a Quasit. The abilities bestowed by the Quasit familiar included 3D8 HP for a grand total (max) of 24. You also immediately got a free extra level, taking you to level 2. So, without so much as a single XP point, if your wizard had a CON of 16 (+2 HP), you could actually have 36 HP which totally blew away the Barbarian. Oh, and the Quasit also bestowed regeneration on the wizard.
Those were the days.... And there was even a Girl at the camp that year. Boy was she popular.
In addition, a level 1 wild mage can in theory (although unreliably) use 9th level mage spells. Finally, the use of all sorts of wands/scrolls makes all first level arcane casters devastating (it's quite easy to obtain wands of fire/cold/paralyzation in bg if you know where to look).
Definitely that, although a barbarian kit would be even more powerful with its +4 on str during berserk.
Throwing Axes are also quite nice, lower attack rate but 1-3 more damage and works with axe spec (better than dagger spec in the end, at least for a straight warrior).