Dual-/Multiclass Kits - Finally doable in BG2:EE due to externalization?

Luckmann

I wish I really had more to say, but it's all in the topic.

Are dual- and multiclass kits finally doable in BG2:EE? Not built into the base, obviously, but as far as modding goes?

It's about the only thing that would truly interest me in BG2 again, after having played through it so many times, since the added content seem miniscule and everything I ever hoped for in a re-release of BG2 was pretty much skipped (more NPC:s from BG1 would've been a nice start... - where's my Kivan and Xan, or Eldoth & Garrick?).

I'm getting sidetracked.

I want to finally be able to do make that Wizard Slayer/Assassin/Illusionist Gnome, or that Wild Mage/Swashbuckler Half-Orc. Or a Kensai/Sorcerer Human, because why not?

Anyway, as per topic. Any hope?

Miloch

This is not really feasible, as there is only one "kit" field in creature/character files. In other words, you can be any one kit associated with any of your classes.

ryuken87

This is pretty much the main thing I wanted from the EEs when they were first announced (at least the possibility to mod it) - allowing all class and kit possibilities. It's sad if it'll never happen.

Miloch

I raised a feature request to allow more class combos: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/410932

Even that would involve quite a lot of work. Allowing *all* class combos would be staggeringly more, since you effectively need a different "class" for each new class combo, and you'd need to get the engine and all the existing scripts to respond to those. Adding all possible kits on top of those just multiplies the technicalities involved. The game engine just isn't set up to handle multiple kits though, and it wasn't permitted in 2nd edition rules either (upon which the game is based).

Xukuth

And yet FlameWing got the multi-class multi-kit builder mod working (with a few caveats) on the original.

Luckmann

The limitations described by Miloch is a result of a lack of externalized resources; which leads me to believe that this has not been changed in "Enhanced Edition"...?

Rats.

Without added functionality, I don't really see why there was an "Enhanced Edition" to begin with, but oh well..

Eudaemonium

There's a *ton* of added functionality. It might just be the case that this is one thing that's so ingrained in the engine itself that it can't really changed. Or if it could would require a monumental amount of effort.

Luckmann

Haven't really seen anything worthwile, and really, I see no reason why this would be more ingrained in the engine than anything else.

Eudaemonium

Whether you've seen anything worthwhile is one thing, but there is a ton of added functionality with lots of things being externalised. One major one being that it is now possible to make Monk and Sorcerer kits, and evil Paladins, which was actually impossible in the original game due to the hard-coding.

Miloch

Luckmann said:

The limitations described by Miloch is a result of a lack of externalized resources

Kits are already externalized, which is why there are so many kit mods. There's just no concept of a "second kit" in the game. There's only one field for kit.

If you want the technicalities, look at http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/file_formats/ie_formats/cre_v1.htm and scroll down to field 0x0244, "Kit information." There's a "long" (4-byte) field there that takes a single value of any vanilla or mod-added kit. There's no way to define multiple values in that field. Now I didn't say this was impossible; I said it wasn't feasible. In theory, we could add a "2nd kit" field that would affect all creature/character resources. But someone would have to sort out a framework of other technicalities, including kits that aren't compatible with each other. Then there are inventory issues and what have you. Since there are already mods that dabble into this (as above), yes, it is *possible* modwise, which I think was your original question (being as this is posted under Modding). "Externalization" generally refers to an existing hardcoded feature that we make "softcoded" via 2DAs etc., and there's no "2nd kit" feature currently (hardcoded or otherwise).

Pantalion

I know that currently Swashbuckler on a Mage/Thief doesn't correctly apply the backstab limit (but does add the THAC0, damage and AC, which just makes a vastly superior thief), so I assume there's something weird about the way that kit data is being applied to multiclasses already. This said, out of curiosity:

1: If one were to make a kit combining features of two kits, or with features that applied to multiple classes, what would the result be?

For example a "Swashbuckler/Conjurer" kit which had rules to add 1 spell per level to Mage spells and restricting Divination spells, whilst adding the standard x1 Backstab, THAC0, damage and AC bonuses based on the Thief class.

Would this work? Not necessarily to add/be visible during Character Creation, but as something that EE-Keeper could set. Can a kit that applies to one class have an impact on the core capabilities of the other class?

If so, this opens up all the multikits you could hope for, but I suspect that people would already have done this if it was that simple.

2: Couldn't potentially most combinations could be keyed off the level of a single class? For example, say, a Kensai/Assassin kit could replicate the Kensai's Advantages:

Bonus +1 to hit and damage for every 3 levels. Bonus -2 AC. Bonus -1 to speed factor for every 4 levels. "Kai" ability once per day for every 4 levels (staring with 1 use at level 1).

Converting this into Exp, the Kensai, therefore, gets its attack bonuses at: 4000, 32000, 250000, 1000000, 1750000, 25000000, 3250000, and 40000000 Exp.
And Kai/Speed Factor bonuses at: 8000, 12500, 1000000, 2000000, 3000000, and 4000000 Exp.

Since in a multiclass the amount of Exp is mirrored across all classes, this means that the Kensassin bonuses could be applied at Thief level 4, 7, 11, 15, 18, 21, 25, 28, and Kai/SF bonuses at Thief level 5, 10, 15, 19, 24, 28.

This isn't a perfect exp parallel, and would need to be repeated for each multikit, but for non-core features like innate abilities, THAC0/Damage bonuses and the like, this is just a matter of maths and, forgive my ignorance if I'm incorrect, "cutting and pasting" into the appropriate levels.

Miloch

Yes, you can make a kit that combines multiple kits. I suspect that is what is done already from a modding perspective, but I haven't looked into the details of the mods that dabble in this. It would be a lot of work to do it for all possible combinations, though there are plenty of mods out there that rise to the challenge of doing a lot of work (and maybe it could be semi-automated; maybe it already is by those mods that deal with this). That's really the best solution for this, in my opinion (from a modder's perspective or developer's).

bescheid

oh I would so love to make a ranger/bard

bescheid

Is there anyway out there to get a ranger/bard. I just cant leave the idea of how fun it would be to play that

[Deleted User]

@bescheid It would require some pretty heavy jury rigging. You can't get bard song without a bard base, and you can't get stealth without a ranger/thief base, and then there's the spellcasting. Maybe a F/M/T with ranger spells added to the spellbook and a special ability approximating a bard song? Is there a way to boost the lore progression of that combo? You could probably disable the other thief skills somehow and leave it up to the player to distribute points between Hide/MS and Pickpocket.