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A D&D story where the Heroes fail.

wariisopwariisop Member Posts: 163
edited September 2012 in Off-Topic
I was just watching my second favorite anime, Berserk, and really love the catch that Guts failed at everything. The hero failed to understand his friends, failed to protect his friends, and failed to protect this love in the end. I know this is kinda dreary, but I like a story that sometimes leaves you open to fail, or even is written around a failing mission. FF 6 did a great job with this, eventhough, in the end they succeeded in stopping Kefka, but the world was already destroyed by that point. I want a D&D game that tells all those stories about when hero's failed, their civilization was wiped out and either everyone or almost everyone died. I don't want the story after the fact, but to be in the middle of the struggle, getting to know the characters and then seeing them die, some like heroes and others like b******. Again, this maybe just me, but all these hero save the world stories are starting to get monotonous, and sometimes that is not the world works. D&D knows this best of all as by the current time line, thousands of Empires have fallen and people gone extinct.

Post edited by Coriander on
DejwoSWKAntonDeltaslayerKenji
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Comments

  • g314g314 Member Posts: 201
    edited August 2012
    When BG starts, you can't do anything to help Gorion in his fight against Sarevok and Minsc couldn't save Dynaheir from Irenicus. Don't forget that in ToB you failed to save Saradush and most of the Bhaalspawn refugees.

  • lmaoboatlmaoboat Member Posts: 72
    I'd rather have a cliche ending than cliche ending that thinks it's being edgy.

    QuartzSchneidendseekaArcalian
  • wariisopwariisop Member Posts: 163
    If you saw Berserk, nothing about it is cliche, and it wasn't just trying to be edgy it just was a good change to the typical heroes ending. Again, I say that there are hundreds of stories already in D&D that tell the tale of heroes failing, with heroic deaths, and legendary characters coming to their end. I just want to live one of those stories where it is remembered for ever, but it did not by saving the day.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Why would you want to get to know a character intimately on to have him/her die in the end? What's wrong with a 'save the world' ending? If you truly want to see failure, go play Mass Effect 3. That game is a failure in itself. I prefer reading a cliche story and feel optimistic afterwards than reading a pessimistic story and feel bad afterwards. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

    AlderonShin
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Why would anybody wanna play a game where you fail?

    Sure I've played games where the hero dies at the end, but still only after he has saved the day. The only game I can think of that does this is Divinity II, but even that ending turns good in the expansion.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited August 2012
    @wariisop, you just saw the anime or you read the manga at least? Cos the anime lack a lot of things (highlighted: Skull knight).

    In the end of FF6 (PSX) or FF3 (SNES) the world don't end, but by killing Kefka we destroy the magic of the world, FF3/6 has two sagas, pre-armageddon and after-armageddon. On the transition of those 2 sagas, Kefka absorb to himself the essence of the 3 godness of magic, making his existence a requeriment for magic existance.

    If you want a bad end, just die and don't reload. FF3/6 don't have a bad end, FF3/6 have a sad end that stirs with our emotional* in a way i believe never agin a game will be able to, and I I state this by experience, cos Mass Effect 3 end is here to proof my point.


    *Terra, the main char of the game, being a half esper lost her essence and fall from the sky at the end.

  • luluscadoluluscado Member Posts: 69
    I think a story where the pc can not win could be really good and interesting it would have to be so well done however. Otherwise it would just be seen as a developer trying to be arty. Maybe a story set before the fall of Netheril where your trying to stop Karsus' folly btu you just can't.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    @luluscado: Then what would be the point of playing the game if the only thing you do is die at the end? How saitisfactory is THAT? I'd call it a waste of my time. If I want to get depressed, I could just as well read the newspaper or watch the news on TV. Plenty of sad things in real life.

    oldsch00l
  • ChippyChippy Member Posts: 241
    I'd appreciate short stories in this vein, but have some problems with main characters dying. Case in point - BG inspired me to buy FR novels, then they killed everyone/everything - now I don't buy any more FR novels.

    Conversely, I never get bored with Asian/Oriental cinema (where the hero is always too heroic for his own good, spends his whole life suffering urequited love, or one untenable situation after another and more often than not either goes down in a blaze of glory against insurmountable odds for honour, or looses his life in some nefarious way while NEVER getting the girl).

    Regarding BG though (and I think this really involves BG3), I don't think the the Bhallspawn should be taken out of the picture. I created that character and he's my alter ego in the FR. But I suppose that's a discussion for another day.

  • SixSix Member Posts: 33
    edited August 2012
    Go play mass effect 3. :)
    Also the berserk anime is kinda bad compared to the manga, I'd guess guts will in the end get a slightly more happy ending. The anime is a bit of a loop showing the now/future at the first ep and then going back and never showing a conclusion to anything. Remake of the berserk anime will most likely be my favorite of all time, Arc I Egg of the Supreme Rule came out a few months ago but not seen it yet myself.

    Would love to play some bad ends in games(don't count ME3 cause it was just plain bad and out of character) or even bitter sweet ones. Just really hard for game makers to do it good and few fans would accept that they can't end a game riding off into the sunset all hero like.

    I kinda liked the ending of nwn actually with aribeth(spelling?) having to pay for her actions, not that much of a bad end for our hero but still in no way a glorious victory, in my view anyhow.

    Oh and to not only trash ME, Ending the second game with EVERYONE dying was pure awesome!

    AurenRavidel
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    @Chippy: Yeah, why create a character if he/she only dies in the end, right...

  • luluscadoluluscado Member Posts: 69
    @kittech_on_a_cloud: It would be about the journey not the ending. Just because a game is sad does not make it bad or uninteresting to play. Maybe your actions could mean some more people survive, or that the rest of realm knows what happens and can avoid it.

  • ChippyChippy Member Posts: 241
    David Gemell managed heroic fantasy well, a recent film watched was "The Lost Bladesman" with Donnie Yen - that was exceptionally well done. The former author would reveal the brutal realities of a soldiers life and the latter took it, duty, and morality to a more cognitive/philisophical level.

    Compared to ME:3 (which I haven't played but have researched well enough) - I'm just gonna leave my Shephard where he and his team were at the end of ME:2. :)

    raider_x
  • wariisopwariisop Member Posts: 163
    *Spoilers* - Game of Thrones

    How many people on this board watch Game of Thrones? When Eddard Stark lost his head at the end of Season one, I was devastated. But, it was a fantastic ending that started a awesome war. When Winterfell was taken over, it brought a true understanding of harshness to the war. I don't consider the random civilian or group of heroes I don't know dying a heart wrenching event that makes me realize this isn't a game. IWD 2 tried to have heroes or characters die in the beginning but there was no real reward for saving a great amount of people, and you didn't really know the characters that well to care. Sometimes it is epic to die a hero that is not around to hear the story, those are normally the most epic stories, just ask Julius Caesar, the nation of Troy,the Battle of Thermopylae, and Attila Hun. These characters and stories are no less epic just because everyone died, or the hero failed. Actually, many of these stories are famous because of that failure, and the heroic efforts that occurred right before the end.

    raider_xBelgarathMTH
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited August 2012
    Yes but the dead of Eddar Stark didn't finsh the Game of Thrones, i would surelly be disappointed if at his death the book ended, and i would of course call the book or the serie a waste of time.

    Now how you pretend to continue the game after killing the main char? This is possible in movies, books, series or games where exist more than one main char, but that's not applicable on Baldur's Gate, you don't have 12 main chars, you have only one. We're not watching a movie, the game ends with main char death.

    oldsch00l
  • wariisopwariisop Member Posts: 163
    Yeah, that was just the beginning of death because the series is still continuing when it comes to Game of Thrones, but you get my point. I am kinda tired of not caring about what I am saving or a least failing partly at saving something because of choices. A good way to fix this is to have battle strategies fail, or choice to trust people bounce back in your face. I personally want something where I can look at what has happened and say s***! Give me some partners to mourn, some places gone that could have been saved, or a world that is forever changed born from valor in the face of death against unstoppable odds.

  • luluscadoluluscado Member Posts: 69
    People keep bringing up me:3 and i don't really think the ending is relevant to a hero failing. ME:3 is just a very bad ending witch makes no sense and does not fit it with the rest of the trilogy. Shepard does stop the reapers in all of the endings so technically he/she does not fail in his task. He/she can ruin the galaxy but in his/her task of destroying the reapers they succeed, in the most stupid ways possible. This is no defence of that horrible disappointing ending, i just don't think its a example of the hero failing technically.

    When i first played ME:3 i fully believed my Shepard would die i even kind of felt that the reapers would just win not matter what you did because that is what they have always done. And i would have been happy with that, well not happy but i would understand and not be angry because they were surpassed to be unstoppable and they where.

    I think different people will all be stratified with different things at the end of the game. I would personally love to always have a happy ending for my character. But sometimes a sad ending can still be enjoyable just for the emotion high/low it brings. And it would be interesting to see this in a game.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    I think a (generally) better theme is: Hero failed really horribly and spends the rest of his/her time fixing their error.

    Syntia13Kate_wise
  • AurenRavidelAurenRavidel Member Posts: 139
    edited August 2012
    @Six That's exactly what I was thinking.

    Being set up for failure isn't a whole lot of fun. I'm fine with a bittersweet ending provided it's satisfying, but being forced into a 'bad' ending isn't what I play videogames for. If I wanted to spend $60 to experience something akin to failure, I'd just use that money to buy tequila.

    Remember kids, nothing good ever comes from tequila.

    Post edited by AurenRavidel on
    masterdesbaxterseekalakrids
  • TalvraeTalvrae Member Posts: 315
    hey in ME3 Extended Ending you can fail completelly

  • EldrythEldryth Member Posts: 56
    There's already a Forgotten Realms game that borders on this- Neverwinter Nights 2. You do stop the villain, but your home is destroyed long before that, and your entire party is killed just afterwards. People hated it, to the point where a number of the deaths had to be retconned in the expansions. So no, I don't think this is a good idea.

  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,339
    Games are totally different from static media such as film and books.

    In films and books, the script writer/author determines the actions of the main characters and the outcome of the story.

    In games, you have options. There are different outcomes, and your objective of the game is to steer the outcome towards the good end. Remember, every time CHARNAME dies, you basically have a bad end.

    If the outcome is always bad, then why not just die at the start of the game? What's the point?

  • DougPiranhaDougPiranha Member Posts: 50
    It's not D&D, but in Arcanum there are endings that can be considered failure, even some of the main story ones.

  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    I agree with @Quartz - if my character is to fail, then I want him to fail in the game intro, and then I can spend a game trying to fix the damage they caused.
    While in theory a 'let's do something new and have the hero fail' approach may seem appealing, just for the novelty factor... In the few books and movies where that actually happened, it depressed me like hell and I hated it.
    Even the scenario when the hero actually saves the day but dies in the process can leave a bad aftertaste. The only case I can think of where the main character dies in the end and yet I love the ending to bits is in "Léon: The Professional". But this kind of ending wouldn't work very well in a game, I think.
    All in all, most people play games for a feeling of satisfaction and achievement; if they want to be faced with depressive helplessness, they only need to wake up in the morning. :P

    Antonjhart1018
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,339

    It's not D&D, but in Arcanum there are endings that can be considered failure, even some of the main story ones.

    You make it sound like you can steer the game in multiple directions, and some of those directions are a bad ending.

    That's completely fine in my book. After all, you're not forced to steer in that direction. It could end up like that if you made certain choices, but you had the chance to avoid that by making different choices.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited August 2012
    @luluscado: Then what would be the point of playing the game if the only thing you do is die at the end? How saitisfactory is THAT?
    Communard's exactly right - in Planescape Torment *Moderate Spoilers*
    *
    *
    *
    *
    You play a man who cannot die. Part of the game is a search for who he is and his lost mortality. He's looking for a way to end his nameless, deathless, amnesiac existence. Regardless of how you play the game he dies and goes to a D&D hell plane to fight in the eternal blood war.

    However, the way in which you approach this ending puts it in context. If you've played a good character it's a redemption, a way of atoning for lifetimes of violence and betrayal. If you're evil then you've taken back your mortality from the powers who stole it from you, and have a chance to prove yourself in an eternal battle.

    In all honesty it's one of the best endings in an RPG, up there with the bittersweet ending of Fallout 1. At the end of Fallout 1 you've beaten the Big Bad, saved the world and protected your home. But you've changed too much and would be a danger to those you love. The leader of your vault refuses to let you back in and the final cinematic is your character stumbling across the desert away from Vault 13, battered and bleeding, into a doomed world. It is truly brilliant.

    AntonDrugar
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    These kind of failing endings don't really do it for me either. I prefer for there to be enough of a choice in a game - especially if it's an RPG - that you can succeed or fail depending on what and how you do throughout the playthrough. That way, if you want to play a character that ultimately fails or gets killed off, you can. Mass Effect 2 implemented this in a decent way where you can fail pretty miserably, or succeed miraculously. But the choice is still left to you, not taken away because of an "art" decision.

  • KharasKharas Member Posts: 150
    edited August 2012
    I must agree with Shin.. A game should give you options.. not take them away from you.. You should be able to get a range of different endings (in some games the differences are small, in others big), And you should by your own actions be able to influence what ending you get. As an example I think Mass Effect 2 did this very well.. and on the other hand, Mass effect 3, sucked so bad its scary.

    If I find out a game im playing have no posibility of a somewhat happy ending.. then it can be the best game in the world.. I simply cant see a point in going on.. Because you might as well not reload next time you die/fail/get made into a kitten, because then you will get the same result as in the ending, and you wont waste time investing in the game.

  • oldsch00loldsch00l Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 189
    All that makes me remember the Dragon Age Origins endings. You never fail at ending the Blight but the consequences can really be different...

    Otherwise I like games where you can fail. Missing out on something and the game goes on. Something like having to bear with the consequences.

    Kate_wise
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