Why can't Monks disarm traps?

Kithrixx

I can see it being a priest thing, like how the Clerics get Detect Traps but no way to actually circumvent them. However, it leaves me wondering, because it's not a spell like Clerics get. It's an actual skill. It mentions in the skill description that Thieves can use that skill to disarm traps, but... why can't Monks disarm them too? Just detection seems kind of useless when Clerics can do it fire-and-forget style and Monks have to be in a "find traps mode". Thieves also have to be in "find traps mode", but they can disarm the traps.

Failing a reasonable explanation being provided, I would suggest that Monks have the "Guard" button on their UI replaced by the "Thieving" button so they can disarm traps. Monks being able to disarm traps wouldn't really impact thieves all that much, as thieves can still pickpocket and pick locks and other fun stuff like that. It would also give something else to do with the stat points granted to you on leveling - currently, I just dump all of them into Hide in Shadows and Move Silently so my monk can get sneaky because there's literally no reason to put any points into Find Traps.

Alternately, we get a monk kit for Lawful Neutral that involves disarming traps. Old Order is an option, or an order that followed Oghma for a kit that was more utility-based than the offensively bent Sun Soul or Dark Moon. Or even the new order from the storyline! Just... something, if the basic monk isn't going to change.

(Note: If this would be better off in Feature Requests feel free to move it - I just felt it was better as a discussion in case there was some rule somewhere stating that Monks can't disarm traps)

belasco

It is pretty useless, but I think it represents more of a 'danger sense' and therefore adding the ability to remove traps wouldn't be appropriate.
I do wish there was a practical way to get through the game without a thief though.

Madhax

I agree, it seems silly. Another poster once suggested that monks at least be immune to detected traps, which makes sense to me.

I try to make use of it by having both my monk and thief detecting simultaneously, but the thief always finds traps first since monks get so few ability points per level anyway and usually spend them on stealth.

Kithrixx

belasco said:

It is pretty useless, but I think it represents more of a 'danger sense' and therefore adding the ability to remove traps wouldn't be appropriate.
I do wish there was a practical way to get through the game without a thief though.

See, I disagree with that. Supernatural sixth senses for danger and the like are usually things that happen way later. Finding traps is a skill that has to be trained and developed, and it seems most appropriate to me to allow characters that can find traps to be able to disable them as well, especially when Monks have so much studying that they do.

Mrpenfold666

well i think the study that monks do is more spiritual than physical, there is physical training but most of it is training your mind and honing your senses into a zen like state. otherwise everyone would be able to disarm traps because everyone -can- learn how to do it, just thieves would be batter at it.

belasco

Kithrixx said:

belasco said:

It is pretty useless, but I think it represents more of a 'danger sense' and therefore adding the ability to remove traps wouldn't be appropriate.
I do wish there was a practical way to get through the game without a thief though.

See, I disagree with that. Supernatural sixth senses for danger and the like are usually things that happen way later. Finding traps is a skill that has to be trained and developed, and it seems most appropriate to me to allow characters that can find traps to be able to disable them as well, especially when Monks have so much studying that they do.

The way I see it, it's less of a supernatural premonition and more just a hyper awareness of his surroundings through mundane senses. This would allow him to spot danger, but doesn't provide him with the skill necessary to disarm it.

Lathrael

They should introduce the "old order" kit, having more thief abilities. They should be able to disarm traps.

SpiffyMcBang

Being nimble-fingered is a thief thing, so being able to disarm traps only if you're a thief makes sense. However, I like the idea that any traps lit up in red don't get triggered if the party walks over them. There would have to be some limitation- big traps like the wall-smasher in the Spellhold basement couldn't be bypassed this way, for example, and it probably shouldn't apply to anyone who's in combat. But luring enemies outside of the traps, then having everyone carefully step over the tripwire when it's safe, seems exactly how it should be.

Kithrixx

SpiffyMcBang said:

Being nimble-fingered is a thief thing, so being able to disarm traps only if you're a thief makes sense. However, I like the idea that any traps lit up in red don't get triggered if the party walks over them. There would have to be some limitation- big traps like the wall-smasher in the Spellhold basement couldn't be bypassed this way, for example, and it probably shouldn't apply to anyone who's in combat. But luring enemies outside of the traps, then having everyone carefully step over the tripwire when it's safe, seems exactly how it should be.

I am pretty sure someone who has enough control over their body to become immune to disease, poison, and eventually the ability to kill someone by waggling their fingers hard enough has enough digit dexterity to undo a trap.

Deltharis

But we are in a high-magic setting here. Traps do not have to be simple tripwires. Thieves do not only have nimble fingers, but also set of abilities and tools (unless you think they open all those locks with bare hands - which would be equally awesome) gained with experience, as well as a way to bluff through magic item restrictions and get them to do what you want them to do. Monk might be able to walk unscathed above a pressure plate - but disabling magical detection system rigged into a contingency mechanism releasing power from a wand situated in the nearby wall is completely different thing. And that is an approximation what traps in BG do - after all even wands, the simpliest way to cast a spell, do not have a gun-like trigger and normally require a mage to fire them.

Morrandirr

Monks can't disable traps because AD&D is a very simple rule set. There are strict classes with certain skills and these classes need to be balanced.
It gets better with DnD 3rd Ed where mutliclassing is a lot easier and you have skills (like Disable Device) that can be learned and used by every class.

Every rule set with strict classes has some flaws when it comes to logic in skilling characters.

Mortianna

The Monk class in 1e AD&D can Find and Remove Traps, along with several other Thief skills. RP-wise, they're very different from Thieves, since they're ascetics and live by a code (thus, their Lawful alignments). Unlike Thieves, they cannot retain any "excessive" treasure and may possess only two magic weapons and three magic items. I can only imagine the protests if those rules were applied in BG.

I agree that the reasoning behind only giving monks the ability to only Find Traps is flawed. Monks train to perfect their mind, spirit, and body, so it's plausible they would learn how to disarm the traps they've been trained to find. This makes them a viable alternative to Thieves in Lawful Good parties or Lawful parties that don't want to incorporate "less respectable" character classes. Since there aren't any Lawful thieves in the BG series, Rasaad could cover the role of trap-finder/remover, making him indispensable for an all-Lawful party.

[Deleted User]

In game terms, I suspect the reason Monks can't disarm traps is because that ability is hard-coded to thief classes. In fact, if you check the vitals for the animal familiars (who get some token thievery skills), they are considered by the game to be thieves.

karnor00

If we try and apply real world logic then why can't mages find traps? They are smart enough and assuming they have a modicum of dexterity (min dexterity for a thief is only 9) they should be able to do it. In fact anyone with enough time and dedication could learn to do it.

The AD&D explanation is that if the monk spent time learning how to disarm traps then he wouldn't have time to learn all his other monk skills. And similarly the mage needs to spend all his time learning spells so has no time for traps (or weaponry or lots of other skills).

But really its about how the game is designed. The designers chose to have specific tasks assigned to specific classes (e.g. mages cast arcane spells, thieves disarm traps, bards sing rousing songs). An alternative, adopted by a number of other game systems, is to have a selection of skills that can be taken by anyone.

Shin

The main issue in game terms is the level of hardcoding. While a thief can easily be edited to have grandmastery and extra attacks like a fighter (or even cast a nearly full range of mage spells as innate abilities), there's still no way to edit another class to be able to open locks or disarm traps.

tennisgolfboll

Because they are not thiefs?

Kithrixx

Shin said:

The main issue in game terms is the level of hardcoding. While a thief can easily be edited to have grandmastery and extra attacks like a fighter (or even cast a nearly full range of mage spells as innate abilities), there's still no way to edit another class to be able to open locks or disarm traps.

Much of the game has been externalized, and all it would require is replacing the Guard button with the Thievery button on the UI.

Mortianna said:

The Monk class in 1e AD&D can Find and Remove Traps, along with several other Thief skills. RP-wise, they're very different from Thieves, since they're ascetics and live by a code (thus, their Lawful alignments). Unlike Thieves, they cannot retain any "excessive" treasure and may possess only two magic weapons and three magic items. I can only imagine the protests if those rules were applied in BG.

I agree that the reasoning behind only giving monks the ability to only Find Traps is flawed. Monks train to perfect their mind, spirit, and body, so it's plausible they would learn how to disarm the traps they've been trained to find. This makes them a viable alternative to Thieves in Lawful Good parties or Lawful parties that don't want to incorporate "less respectable" character classes. Since there aren't any Lawful thieves in the BG series, Rasaad could cover the role of trap-finder/remover, making him indispensable for an all-Lawful party.

I thought I remembered something along those lines. I don't really think they should be able to pick locks - I mean, maybe they should, but I don't want them to replace Thieves. I just want them to be able to handle the traps that they find, because the fact that they can't bothers me.

iavasechui

Honestly the idea of a monk being able to disarm traps would be nice if possible. Locked things of course would still be a problem but if you really don't want a thief you could have your fighter attempt to break open locked doors. Of course I love using thieves, but even so a monk able to disarm traps might be able to assist if you are using a dual class thief who can't quite handle the traps.

kamuizin

Kaigen said:

In game terms, I suspect the reason Monks can't disarm traps is because that ability is hard-coded to thief classes. In fact, if you check the vitals for the animal familiars (who get some token thievery skills), they are considered by the game to be thieves.

Pretty much that. If they had the pickpocket icon to select (the one thiefs use to disarm traps) they would probally be able to disarm the traps.