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Flail of Ages +4 is better than Flail of Age +5 Now

acw18acw18 Member Posts: 62
In vanilla BG2, free action worked with boots of haste so that you could get the benefits of free action as well as being hasted, but the change to it in BG2EE has made the FoA +5 a terrible weapon. It now prevents the wearer from being hasted which is an astonishingly HUGE debuff.

It's such a large debuff that it basically makes "upgrading" the weapon a horrendous mistake. I would be perfectly fine with just removing the free action status from the weapon all together than having to deal with this. I realize that this is not a bug, and it is working as intended, but for the sake of this awesome weapon, what are the possibilities of free action being removed from it, or allowing boots of speed to work in conjunction. I have Minsc using the FoA and the upgrade has literally halved his effectiveness. It's depressing and frankly it doesn't make sense for the item's upgrade to make it worse, especially considering the +4 FoA description says that finding the last flail head will make it even more powerful.

Comments

  • Minsc gets Greater Whirlwind, so he has no problem working around the inability to haste with FoA. FoA is the most damaging weapon per hit in the game, right up there with the Club of Detonation and Crom Faeyr, on top of having a no-save slow effect. You'll note that the former requires you to work around random fireballs, while the latter requires one heck of a scavenger hunt. I think FoA is sitting in a good place.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    Damn, I have Viconia using this at +4 currently, this makes me not want to go to +5. She doesn't even have whirlwind attacks to fall back on.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Frankly the FoA +5 does an absolutely stupid amount of damage on top of having a ridiculously good effect so I like that it has a little downside. If I was modding it to remove the free action I'd probably also lower the elemental damage to +1 each.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Madhax said:

    Damn, I have Viconia using this at +4 currently, this makes me not want to go to +5. She doesn't even have whirlwind attacks to fall back on.

    Ack why do you guys love wasting good weapons on Viconia D:

    It's not quite as bad as giving her the Crom Faeyr... but it IS the flail of ages and should only be wielded by a certified butt kicker.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    elminster said:

    In the case of weapons like this you can just bypass the Free Action by switching weapons before the haste and then switching back. You'll be hasted and you'll have the Free Action active.

    Not sure if that works anymore. It didn't when I tried to use the boots of speed and the ring of free action together.
    Kaigen said:

    Minsc gets Greater Whirlwind, so he has no problem working around the inability to haste with FoA. FoA is the most damaging weapon per hit in the game, right up there with the Club of Detonation and Crom Faeyr, on top of having a no-save slow effect. You'll note that the former requires you to work around random fireballs, while the latter requires one heck of a scavenger hunt. I think FoA is sitting in a good place.

    Having a frontliner who falls way behind the rest of the party is a huge pain as well. Monks can't be hasted either, but at least they move quickly naturally.

  • mylegbig said:

    Having a frontliner who falls way behind the rest of the party is a huge pain as well. Monks can't be hasted either, but at least they move quickly naturally.

    Use weapon quickslots to switch to a different weapon when moving, then back to the Flail when you've closed to melee.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    edited December 2013
    mylegbig said:

    elminster said:

    In the case of weapons like this you can just bypass the Free Action by switching weapons before the haste and then switching back. You'll be hasted and you'll have the Free Action active.

    Not sure if that works anymore. It didn't when I tried to use the boots of speed and the ring of free action together.

    I tested it twice before posting that. Once with haste and once with improved haste on Viconia. It works.
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    elminster said:

    In the case of weapons like this you can just bypass the Free Action by switching weapons before the haste and then switching back. You'll be hasted and you'll have the Free Action active.

    elminster said:

    I tested it twice before posting that. Once with haste and once with improved haste on Viconia. It works.

    Shhhh, don't let @CamDawg know about this ;-)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    edited December 2013
    I'll be taking advantage of it as long as I can! ( #2118 for anyone looking at internal bug reports)
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    edited December 2013
    So basically don't upgrade? I think we need a modder on this. Oh we'll not in TOB yet
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    Download DLTCEP and tweak the item. It takes like 5 seconds.
  • althoralthor Member Posts: 67
    I noticed some items would work if you equiped them after free-action and some do not. Flail will work that way. Ring of free-action will not.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Erg said:

    elminster said:

    In the case of weapons like this you can just bypass the Free Action by switching weapons before the haste and then switching back. You'll be hasted and you'll have the Free Action active.

    elminster said:

    I tested it twice before posting that. Once with haste and once with improved haste on Viconia. It works.

    Shhhh, don't let @CamDawg know about this ;-)
    Ooh, thanks for the ping. In the olden days (you know, BG2) we couldn't fix stuff like this.

    Now we can.

  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    For my part, debuff or no, I don't think I could content myself to finish the game with a FoA+4 knowing that Cespenar has a recipie and I have the ingredients. OCD RPer, me.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Oh, and I'd be remiss if I didn't plug @Miloch's PnP Free Action mod. Basically lets you have your free action and haste, if you so desire.
  • I did some griping about Free Action on items feeling like a penalty in this thread, and also posted modified files for the RoFA, FoA+5 and Ixil's Spike. I didn't do anything to the Free Action spell itself, because I never use it.

    I guess I don't understand the logic of a buff needing to have such a serious downside. By the end of SoA, and certainly within ToB, having melee dps (or an archer for that matter) who a) can't benefit from Improved Haste and b) can't get the movement speed increase from Boots of Speed or Grandmaster's Armor is tantamount to having them permanently Slowed. Imagine if Vocalize doubled the casting time of every spell, or if Remove Fear caused you to be unable to move away from an enemy.

    I've come to terms with the developers' intent, and decided that for this case I'm going to be a horrible cheater. :P
  • MaylanderMaylander Member Posts: 74
    The "fix" of swapping weapons works for the Flail, but it obviously does nothing to fix the likes of Keldorn's armor or similar items. I'm actually somewhat annoyed by this because, as Cyteen pointed out, those items feel like they're cursed now.

    It's not a major issue, as it's simple to stay away from said items and just use Chaotic Commands instead, but it does mean I have to bring a set of armor whenever I pick up Keldorn. Luckily, such armor is available slightly north east of where Keldorn is picked up..
  • acw18acw18 Member Posts: 62
    edited December 2013
    The major problem here with the flail is that neither the +3, or +4 flail have free action on it. So when it gets "upgraded" to +5 it feels like you are being punished for being a completionist, which is never good. As someone else said, it makes the item feel like it's cursed, though it never was before the upgrade.

    Someone mentioned how it's comparable to the Club of Detonation, that weapon has the downside of a chance of fire-balling your party. That is an incorrect statement, because the Club of Detonation has this chance on it's upgraded and it's regular version. The Flail of Ages does not always have free action on it, only the +5 version.

    With that said, I have no problem with items that have free action on them to begin with (Such as the ring of free action). But with the Flail there is a major continuity error with it's final upgrade having free action. If free action was always on the flail this argument would never have came up. But it comes later, and its awful and it makes the weapon nigh worthless amongst the other great items of TOB without resorting to silly cheese tactics to get around it.

    I understand that mods can fix this, but I shouldn't have to resort to mods to fix it, there is simply no good reason for it to be there in the first place.
    Post edited by acw18 on
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited March 2014
    I'm trying to choose a second weapon to specialize for my PC so I'll flog this dead horse. Some observations from my testing game:

    1. FoA Free Action negates and prevents speed bonus from Boots of Speed
    2. FoA Free Action does not negate speed and APR bonus from Haste/Improved Haste

    The current situation does not make sense. If Free Action negates speed bonus from equipped Boots of Speed, shouldn't it negate Haste/Improved Haste if these spells are active?

    Next patch, is this going to go "negate all haste effects including haste spells"? I'd hate to choose a specialization now, then when a patch comes out I'll have to rework or mod my character.

    PnP Free Action does not affect Haste, and the spell description of Free Action says "... becomes immune..." with no mention whether any existing effects are negated. The old treatment of "equip haste items/cast haste spells, then equip FoA" is consistent with the "does not negate existing effects but prevents future effects" logic. The argument can go the other way of course, but the existing arrangement is neither here not there.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    The Flail of Ages is one of many items in the game that had to get a look over (in this case because it gives Free Action). As I understand it the idea behind immunity is that you are immune to whatever effect you currently have once you become immune. As far as I'm aware if you are poisoned and then become immune to poison you'll no longer be poisoned. Same for a number of other status effects.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    elminster said:

    The Flail of Ages is one of many items in the game that had to get a look over (in this case because it gives Free Action). As I understand it the idea behind immunity is that you are immune to whatever effect you currently have once you become immune. As far as I'm aware if you are poisoned and then become immune to poison you'll no longer be poisoned. Same for a number of other status effects.

    If this is the case, I'd second the removal of Haste effects from Haste/Improved Haste when FoA is equipped. it sucks to see Improved Haste fail with FoA, but for consistency, this is the way to go.
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